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Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 76

Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Any chance he presents as a model prisoner and they HAVE to release him at 21 years? Guy doesnt appear to be mentally ill...Im thinking he can be as devious as fits his needs.

The key here is.. "threat to society"... and that is a very very broad term. He can be the best model prisoner in history but if they believe he still is a threat to society then he will not be released.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Any chance he presents as a model prisoner and they HAVE to release him at 21 years? Guy doesnt appear to be mentally ill...Im thinking he can be as devious as fits his needs.

That would be for the government of Norway to determine at that time. He may be reformed, and Norway might still think he is a threat and hold him longer. Given his ideology, I doubt 21 years will cause him to change much. Which causes me to think Norway will keep him locked up untill he is incapable of being a physical threat.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Don't they get appeals and what happened to innocent UNTIL proven guilty?

People have been executed for crimes they didn't commit. No system is perfect. One comes to mind of a guy convicted of murdering all of his children via arson. Turns out that the fire investigators did a shoddy job and mislabeled the fire as arson. Turns out later that the fire was accidental, not even set by the guy. Whoops, he's already been executed.

In this Norwegian dude's case, I'd bet $20 that he stays longer than the 21 years. Norway has one of those scary-ass "we release you when we feel like it" loopholes. I think there have been a few cases like that in the US with sex offenders, where they keep the guy in jail beyond his sentence because they say he's a danger. The mere existence of such a law bothers the hell out of me. What's the point of sentencing a specific term if it's going to be ignored?
 
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Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

It would not be an accident now would it

Yes it would. He was tried in a court of law, evidence was presented,testimonies were presented,arguments were made and they decided that based on those things that the defendant is guilty.
It would be the intentional killing of someone, an innocent someone. Ie murder
Murder the is the illegal killing of another person under the conditions described in the law. It is not illegal to execute someone.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Maximum penalty in Norway isn`t 21 years, it`s 30 years. If I understand it correctly, 21 years is for murder, and this man can be sentenced for crimes against humanity. Though, he will most likeley be locked up until he dies in a maximum security prison because, as mentioned before, he will probably be sentenced to "forvaring". So I guess he will end up like he had in a US state without DP...
 
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Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Boy's Birthday Party Turned Into Massacre by Estranged Husband - ABC News

If only there was a dealth penalty in places like Texas these kinda things wouldn't happen. Or maybe you've just completly over simplified an extremely complex issue.

Well, when you find a solution to this that is 100%, you be sure and start a thread about. K?

The only problem I have with the death penalty, is that it's not used enough.

Look at the crime rate in Mexico. They don't have a death penalty and drug crime is out of control.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

People have been executed for crimes they didn't commit. No system is perfect. One comes to mind of a guy convicted of murdering all of his children via arson. Turns out that the fire investigators did a shoddy job and mislabeled the fire as arson. Turns out later that the fire was accidental, not even set by the guy. Whoops, he's already been executed.

In this Norwegian dude's case, I'd bet $20 that he stays longer than the 21 years. Norway has one of those scary-ass "we release you when we feel like it" loopholes. I think there have been a few cases like that in the US with sex offenders, where they keep the guy in jail beyond his sentence because they say he's a danger. The mere existence of such a law bothers the hell out of me. What's the point of sentencing a specific term if it's going to be ignored?

People have been locked up for life, for crimes they didn't commit. Are we going to stop putting people in jail?
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

That would be for the government of Norway to determine at that time. He may be reformed, and Norway might still think he is a threat and hold him longer. Given his ideology, I doubt 21 years will cause him to change much. Which causes me to think Norway will keep him locked up untill he is incapable of being a physical threat.

Kinda makes the whole "we have a 21 year sentence" thing moot, huh?
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

People have been locked up for life, for crimes they didn't commit. Are we going to stop putting people in jail?

No. That would be stupid.

See, execution is not reversible. Prison is. If you are later discovered to be innocent, you can be released and compensated for your wrongful imprisonment. Until we figure out resurrection technology, the same cannot be said of the death penalty.

But I'm sure you already knew all that. You did read the conversation that lead to my statement, right?
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

That said, I've always thought the 21-year max sentence was insane. There are some criminals that can never be made safe for society. And they should never be released. Releasing sociopaths, mass-murderers, joy killers, child molesters, and rapists just invites them to re-offend. They can't be rehabilitated. Releasing them is insane. I hope Norway will reconsider this policy.

I've never understood the point of life imprisonment. You might as well allow the prisoner the mercy of death's sweet embrace if you're going to throw away the key and have them rot their life away behind bars. Either a society should decide whether it's going to rid themselves of people who commit capital crimes or give them a chance to gradually reintegrate back into society. If a society chooses the latter, then it needs to do away with extremely long prison sentences.

Many of the voices clamoring for life imprisonment or execution are just motivated by vengeance, anyway, and the opinions of the vengeful are not a valid basis for deciding the fate of a criminal.

That being said, it's easier and cheaper just to put a bullet in a convict's brain than to make the effort to rehabilitate them. That's why a nation that decides rehabilitation is the correct path for its criminals needs to be completed committed to the task.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

No. That would be stupid.

See, execution is not reversible. Prison is. If you are later discovered to be innocent, you can be released and compensated for your wrongful imprisonment. Until we figure out resurrection technology, the same cannot be said of the death penalty.

But I'm sure you already knew all that. You did read the conversation that lead to my statement, right?

If someone dies in prison, that's purdy damn irreversable.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

People have been locked up for life, for crimes they didn't commit. Are we going to stop putting people in jail?

No, of course not. But one cannot seriously suggest that ending the death penalty due to the fact that the use of it will catch innocent people and those people will be put to death is comparable in any way to a total lack of prison punishments for significant crimes. People have been put into jail for crimes they haven't committed, people have been executed for crimes they hadn't committed. If you are innocent of charges and in jail, if you are not killed you have time to appeal and be heard again and try to prove innocence as new information becomes present. If the State kills you, you're dead. You don't get that luxury. The death penalty in general is something that we don't quite need still and given its failure points, it seems more prudent to end the usage of it. Or reform it at least to the likes of Colorado. Here to get a DP verdict, you have to have more proof than is necessary for a mere guilty verdict. The burden of proof is much much higher if the State seeks the death penalty. As a result, we have only a couple folk on our death row (3 or so), and they've all been guilty of the crimes they committed and the State was able to uphold the higher burden of proof and demonstrate it. In this case, you still get to have the DP for very bad crimes, but it won't be used a lot, and when it is the burden of proof is so high that you gaurantee that a conviction means that the person really did it.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

The point of the death penalty is to serve as the ultimate punishment a criminal can receive. The reason the death penalty does not act as a deterrent is because of the fact it takes 10-20 years to execute someone.Scumbag sympathizers do not give two ****s about the victims in their minds its not guilty until proven innocent. To them its innocents even after proven guilty.

If they immediately executed those who received the death penalty it would serve as a deterrent. Do you think prison would serve as a deterrent if it took 10-20 years after a guilty conviction before they finally went to prison?

And how many MORE innocent people would be executed than already are?
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Don't they get appeals and what happened to innocent UNTIL proven guilty?

When some states don't ensure that defendants don't get their full rights, prosecutorial misconduct, police cover ups, etc. and yes, innocent people DO get executed. I am not anti-death penalty, but there are certainly problems in the way it is used.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Well, when you find a solution to this that is 100%, you be sure and start a thread about. K?

The only problem I have with the death penalty, is that it's not used enough.

Look at the crime rate in Mexico. They don't have a death penalty and drug crime is out of control.

Guilt can be determined beyond a reasonble doubt, but the standard for the death penalty should be MUCH higher... beyond ALL doubt...
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

No I didnt

Then the only other alternative is that you didn't understand what I said. So i'll rephrase it and try again.

Monetary compensation can be paid by the state to protect its employees directly to the person wrongly held

Only if the person is alive. If not the the compensation would go to family. What do you think happens if an innocent dies while in prison without the DP?

A dead person can not be compensated

But his/her family can.

and as he was murdered by the state and entirely different level of punishement is called for then just being wrongly held. Eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. A death for a death. Meaning those involved in wrongly ending a persons life should have thier life ended as well. Proper compensation, and a deterent to killing people unless absolutely certain they are guiltly

This is not the bibilical ages. We no longer have an "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a death for a death". If we did then EVERYONE that killed someone else...be it an accident or not would also be put to death.

Now for the rephrasing. What do you think would happen if we made those responsible for putting someone on the DP list responsible if they are later found innocent after having already been put to death? A few things...

1: Such a thing would have to be applied equally across the board. This includes cases that involve theft, vandalism, arson and every other single thing that is on the law books. And don't try to say that it wouldn't because that is exactly what our system is based upon. Equality in the eyes of the law.

2: The jury is not going to want to convict despite any evidence. Normal people would not want to risk going to prison or being fined as some sort of restitution towards someone that was later found to be innocent. People instinctively protect thier own hides. That is just nature.

3: No one will want to be on a jury panel. For the same reasons that I gave in my number 2 point.

2: No one will want to be the arresting cop. For the same reasons that I gave in my number 2 point.

4: No one will want to be a judge that presides over someone that might later be found innocent. For the same reasons that I gave in my number 2 point.

5: No one will want to be a prosecutor. For the same reasons that I gave in my number 2 point.

So basically because of your "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" mentality you have just seriously gimped...if not destroyed our entire justice system and let thousands of criminals back out onto the street single handedly. Our system is gimped enough due to humans not being perfect creatures and always making mistakes. We certainly don't need something that will hinder an actual criminal being convicted and sentenced to such a point as to make our justice system totally worthless.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Then the only other alternative is that you didn't understand what I said. So i'll rephrase it and try again.



Only if the person is alive. If not the the compensation would go to family. What do you think happens if an innocent dies while in prison without the DP?



But his/her family can.



This is not the bibilical ages. We no longer have an "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a death for a death". If we did then EVERYONE that killed someone else...be it an accident or not would also be put to death.

Now for the rephrasing. What do you think would happen if we made those responsible for putting someone on the DP list responsible if they are later found innocent after having already been put to death? A few things...

1: Such a thing would have to be applied equally across the board. This includes cases that involve theft, vandalism, arson and every other single thing that is on the law books. And don't try to say that it wouldn't because that is exactly what our system is based upon. Equality in the eyes of the law.

2: The jury is not going to want to convict despite any evidence. Normal people would not want to risk going to prison or being fined as some sort of restitution towards someone that was later found to be innocent. People instinctively protect thier own hides. That is just nature.

3: No one will want to be on a jury panel. For the same reasons that I gave in my number 2 point.

2: No one will want to be the arresting cop. For the same reasons that I gave in my number 2 point.

4: No one will want to be a judge that presides over someone that might later be found innocent. For the same reasons that I gave in my number 2 point.

5: No one will want to be a prosecutor. For the same reasons that I gave in my number 2 point.

So basically because of your "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" mentality you have just seriously gimped...if not destroyed our entire justice system and let thousands of criminals back out onto the street single handedly. Our system is gimped enough due to humans not being perfect creatures and always making mistakes. We certainly don't need something that will hinder an actual criminal being convicted and sentenced to such a point as to make our justice system totally worthless.
you just pointed out the problem with the death penalty. The justice system is not perfect and the ability to reverse any decision is vital for a truly just outcome
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

While I and many others may not agree with Norway's justice system, I think it's absurd to call them trash or criminal sympathizers simply because they don't have the same justice system there that we have in the US. Not all cultures are alike. It's a fact of life.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

While I and many others may not agree with Norway's justice system, I think it's absurd to call them trash or criminal sympathizers simply because they don't have the same justice system there that we have in the US. Not all cultures are alike. It's a fact of life.

Norway is an open, pluristic, democratic society. They have the right to order their society as they see fit. If they wish to not have the death penalty, that is their choice. Being from a state that has it, but has found little need for it, I can appreciate living in an environment where its use would not truly be necessary.
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Not if there is willful misconduct.

Can you prove there is willful misconduct?
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

And how many MORE innocent people would be executed than already are?

Certainly not a 36 year old mejican immigrant that raped and bashed the skull in of a teenager! That dood no longer represents a threat to society. Hell..Id even be willing to follow the norweigan model and release his dead body after 21 years...
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

Part of the reason most developed nations have a lower homicide rate than we do is because they don't execute people. Their governments don't relish in killing, therefore their people don't practice it as frequently. Sorry if that offends your bloodlust.

That said, I've always thought the 21-year max sentence was insane. There are some criminals that can never be made safe for society. And they should never be released. Releasing sociopaths, mass-murderers, joy killers, child molesters, and rapists just invites them to re-offend. They can't be rehabilitated. Releasing them is insane. I hope Norway will reconsider this policy.

The Death Penalty saves lives. It acts as a deterrent, and how many would be murderers have been deterred we will never know.

In Germany they released RAF (Rote Armee Faktion) terrorists. That decision opens the door for potential Islamic Terrorists to use the same avenue decades later. Had they executed the asses, there would have been no problem and there would have been closure. The families that lost people o the RAF must have been horrified.

My heart goes out to those who lost loved ones, friends, neighbors, and colleagues... but Norway just got a glimpse of how ridiculous it is being compassionate to murderers. I have a question... This one scumbag killed 73-some people and should be permanently removed from existence, but every year in Philly you average a murder a day. Far more damage to far more individuals. All of them who premeditate heinous acts of murder should pay the ultimate price. It should be clear you are going to pay. No?

Norway is in a bind, and are doing judicial gymnastics to try and deal with this. It shouldn't be so complicated.

.
 
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Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

The Death Penalty saves lives. It acts as a deterrent, and how many would be murderers have been deterred we will never know.

In Germany they released RAF (Rote Armee Faktion) terrorists. That decision opens the door for potential Islamic Terrorists to use the same avenue decades later. Had they executed the asses, there would have been no problem and there would have been closure. The families that lost people o the RAF must have been horrified.

My heart goes out to those who lost loved ones, friends, neighbors, and colleagues... but Norway just got a glimpse of how ridiculous it is being compassionate to murderers. I have a question... This one scumbag killed 73-some people and should be permanently removed from existence, but every year in Philly you average a murder a day. Far more damage to far more individuals. All of them who premeditate heinous acts of murder should pay the ultimate price. It should be clear you are going to pay. No?

Norway is in a bind, and are doing judicial gymnastics to try and deal with this. It shouldn't be so complicated.

.

/sarcasm on

Man... if you are right, just imagine the chaos the US would be in without the death penalty....

5 murders per 100.000 people a year in the US.. vs the 0.6 in Norway and 0.86 in Germany...just think how much higher it would be in the US if there was no death penalty!!!!

/sarcasm off
 
Re: Norway's 21-Year Maximum Penalty Sparks Outcry After Terror Attacks That Killed 7

The only report of outrage in Norway comes from the OP source, which is less than reliable. This thread is no more than an excuse for those desperate to justify American lack of gun control. There is no depth too low for them to stoop. The xenophobic bigotry is merely a side-effect of their obsession.
 
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