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BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

liblady said:
this whole argument is ridiculous. EVERYONE wants to pay less in taxes. some of us just realize that reality is smacking us in the face.
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Right, this is ridiculous. you honestly believe that people making 50,000 or less cannot pay anything for the services they receive from the taxpayers?

The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all taxes.
The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all taxes.
The top 10% of wage earners make 45.8% of all income and pay 69.9% of all taxes.

The bottom 50% make 12.8% of all income and pay 2.7% of all taxes.

Currently approximately 47% of all Americans pay nothing and actually get money back making their tax rate negative.
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tessaesque said:
You saying it happens doesn't make it actually happen. I could say I poop jelly beans, but that doesn't make it true. Neither does saying it in every single thread, multiple times, without cause or correllation.
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The rightwingers defense of the rich is so lacking in fact that they have to deny what everyone knows; that in recent years the rich have received massive bailouts funded by the middle class with their tax dollars.

Anyone can say whatever you want, wherever you want, as long they abide by the rules. I'll exercise my choices however I please.
 
Conservative said:
How much more of your money are you sending to the govt. so they can take care of those people you claim you care about? What is ridiculous is a belief that the govt. can solve social problems. That is the role of the state and local communities, not the Federal Govt. How much are you spending in food, gasoline, and other necessities for the poor?
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you are truly a one trick pony.
 
sangha said:
The middle class is paying more than their fair share of all taxes, so the rich can get a free ride on the back of the middle class. The middle class also gives a higher portion of the income to charity. By all measures, the rich have shown that they are devoid of compassion and conscience.
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This is pure entertainment, thanks! What a joke!
 
Conservative said:
Oh, good Lord, another percentage change argument. Since those evil rich people are already paying 38% of the FIT they already start at a disadvantage of spendable income over people who pay zero. Nice try but irrelevant.
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The fact that so many Americans don't pay income tax is basically attributable to three things: 1) the recession, 2) increasing income disparity, and 3) tax credits (mainly EITC and dependent exemptions.

Two-thirds of the 45% who don't pay income tax make less than $20k per year. How much money do you think you're going to raise by taxing those people? Not much. That's because a relatively small percentage of Americans control the vast majority of the wealth.

Over the years, the percentage of taxes paid by the wealthy relative to everyone else has fallen considerably -- just as their share of the wealth has risen. If this trend continues we will eventually become very much like a third world country, with a few very rich people, a lot of poor people, and not much in between. That, in turn, leads to social unrest and political instability. This benefits no one in the long term.
 
Redress said:
Oh good lord. It's not percent change, it is percent of income. It is clearly labeled as that in fact.

The reason some people no Federal Income tax is because their income is so low. If you are wealthy, you in fact have more income, even when it is taxed. Paying 0 % of 30k means you have 30k income, paying 38 % of 250 k means you have 155k income. Who has more spendable income?
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That depends on the rest of the story? Do they live in the same town, same development? Or is one making 250K in New York City, trying to pay for a 900 sq. foot apartment and barely making it by, while the other makes 30k in Fort Wayne, IN and owns a 2100 sq. ft home? That's the problem with arbitrarily picking a number based on what percentage of people make that amount (or whatever logic they're using). Far more goes into determining somebody's financial status than just income. Their geographic location, debts, dependents, medical condition....all of it can make two people with vastly different incomes markedly similar onces all of the chips are counted.
 
Conservative said:
Right, this is ridiculous. you honestly believe that people making 50,000 or less cannot pay anything for the services they receive from the taxpayers?
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I beleive that the rich should pay their fair share before they start whining about how others aren't paying their fair share.
 
Conservative said:
This is pure entertainment, thanks! What a joke!
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Stick around. I got plenty, and I'll be around for a while

As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. “I tell you the truth,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.” Luke 21:1-4
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liblady said:
you are truly a one trick pony.
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Too bad that "one trick pony" confuses you with facts, logic, and common sense as I never get an answer from you.

The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all FIT taxes.
The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all FIT taxes.
The top 10% of wage earners make 45.8% of all income and pay 69.9% of all FIT taxes.

The bottom 50% make 12.8% of all income and pay 2.7% of all FIT taxes.

Currently approximately 47% of all Americans pay nothing in FIT and actually get money back making their tax rate negative.
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sangha said:
Stick around. I got plenty, and I'll be around for a while
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Jesus taught us all Free will, never taking from someone else to give to others. he left that to the compassion of others and would reward people accordingly. You and your ilk are looking for forced redistribution and that goes against the teachings of Jesus
 
sangha said:
The rightwingers defense of the rich is so lacking in fact that they have to deny what everyone knows; that in recent years the rich have received massive bailouts funded by the middle class with their tax dollars.

Anyone can say whatever you want, wherever you want, as long they abide by the rules. I'll exercise my choices however I please.
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And again, proof. Provide a link, some document, something that shows a correllation/causation, or any relatable piece of information that proves your point. You can't, because it's all idealistic nonsense and you damned well know it. Then, you want to go and generalize an entire group of people because of an idiot ideologue's message instead of having an honest debate.

And you're right, you can do whatever you want...but being a hack and spewing a bunch of indefensible crap, generalizing against as many people as you can, and being annoyingly repetitive? Those things will win you no points for validity, no respect in the argument. Either speak honestly and back up your claims, or stop repeating yourself over and over again thinking it's going to accomplish anything. You'll notice, even the people you agree with provide more than hackish nonsense to make a point. And they back up their claims with connectable facts. Perhaps it's something you could learn from.
 
tessaesque said:
That depends on the rest of the story? Do they live in the same town, same development? Or is one making 250K in New York City, trying to pay for a 900 sq. foot apartment and barely making it by, while the other makes 30k in Fort Wayne, IN and owns a 2100 sq. ft home? That's the problem with arbitrarily picking a number based on what percentage of people make that amount (or whatever logic they're using). Far more goes into determining somebody's financial status than just income. Their geographic location, debts, dependents, medical condition....all of it can make two people with vastly different incomes markedly similar onces all of the chips are counted.
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You are talking cost of living. I am talking amount of cash after taxes. You really cannot compare a wealthy family living in a 2500 sq ft house with a poor family living in a 750 sq ft apartment. Yes, the rich person has more money going to mortgage than the poor person, but they also are getting more. Expenses for the rich tend to be higher, because the rich buy nicer things.

Throw in cost of living variations by location, and things get way too complex to compare without a spreadsheet, a math degree, and massive spare time.
 
sangha said:
I beleive that the rich should pay their fair share before they start whining about how others aren't paying their fair share.
Click to expand...

The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all FIT taxes.
The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all FIT taxes.
The top 10% of wage earners make 45.8% of all income and pay 69.9% of all FIT taxes.

The bottom 50% make 12.8% of all income and pay 2.7% of all FIT taxes.

Currently approximately 47% of all Americans pay nothing in FIT and actually get money back making their tax rate negative.
 
Conservative said:
Too bad that "one trick pony" confuses you with facts, logic, and common sense as I never get an answer from you.
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"Facts" is plural. All I've seen is ONE fact, which the rich and their rightwing supporters endlessly repeat while ignoring the mountain of evidence which shows how the rich are profiting from the labors of the middle class.

us-income-inequality_uneven_prosperity1.gif
 
Conservative said:
Jesus taught us all Free will, never taking from someone else to give to others. he left that to the compassion of others and would reward people accordingly. You and your ilk are looking for forced redistribution and that goes against the teachings of Jesus
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Jesus also said "Render unto Cesar..."

And it's the rich who are using their bought off politicians to forcefully redistribute wealth
 
tessaesque said:
And again, proof. Provide a link, some document, something that shows a correllation/causation, or any relatable piece of information that proves your point. You can't, because it's all idealistic nonsense and you damned well know it. Then, you want to go and generalize an entire group of people because of an idiot ideologue's message instead of having an honest debate.

And you're right, you can do whatever you want...but being a hack and spewing a bunch of indefensible crap, generalizing against as many people as you can, and being annoyingly repetitive? Those things will win you no points for validity, no respect in the argument. Either speak honestly and back up your claims, or stop repeating yourself over and over again thinking it's going to accomplish anything. You'll notice, even the people you agree with provide more than hackish nonsense to make a point. And they back up their claims with connectable facts. Perhaps it's something you could learn from.
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I will not be diverted by absurd requests to prove what everyone knows - that the rich have recieved massive bailouts from the govt.
 
sangha said:
Jesus also said "Render unto Cesar..."

And it's the rich who are using their bought off politicians to forcefully redistribute wealth
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Yes, meaning again free will, NOT forced redistribution
 
sangha said:
I will not be diverted by absurd requests to prove what everyone knows - that the rich have recieved massive bailouts from the govt.
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You will never be diverted from your talking points and political act
 
liblady said:
lol....i am so confused. yes, it's hard stuff, that math. what does 38% + 58.7% + 69.9 % equal? where did you get your numbers again? bls, was it? or was it bls, or bls?
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Verifiable non partisan sources, frustrates you, doesn't it?
 
Redress said:
You are talking cost of living. I am talking amount of cash after taxes. You really cannot compare a wealthy family living in a 2500 sq ft house with a poor family living in a 750 sq ft apartment. Yes, the rich person has more money going to mortgage than the poor person, but they also are getting more. Expenses for the rich tend to be higher, because the rich buy nicer things.

Throw in cost of living variations by location, and things get way too complex to compare without a spreadsheet, a math degree, and massive spare time.
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Which is why nobody has yet been able to explain to me who qualifies as "rich" or "fair share", I'd imagine. Saying that 250k is rich for every single person at that income level is inaccurate, naive, and reckless. Taxing based solely on income fails to take into account the very real existence of different COLs across the country.
 
sangha said:
I will not be diverted by absurd requests to prove what everyone knows - that the rich have recieved massive bailouts from the govt.
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Show me. I don't know that. SHOW ME!
 
Conservative said:
The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all FIT taxes.
The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all FIT taxes.
The top 10% of wage earners make 45.8% of all income and pay 69.9% of all FIT taxes.

The bottom 50% make 12.8% of all income and pay 2.7% of all FIT taxes.

Currently approximately 47% of all Americans pay nothing in FIT and actually get money back making their tax rate negative.
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There is only one fact that the rightwingers can use to support the massive redistribution of wealth that is going on, so they will repeat it endlessly and never respond to any of the facts which show how the rich are soaking the middle class through unrealized capital gains, lower rates on realized capital gains, bailouts, tax deductions for luxury items like private jets, subsidies, price supports, and a myriad of policies which protect their wealth.
 
Conservative said:
Right, this is ridiculous. you honestly believe that people making 50,000 or less cannot pay anything for the services they receive from the taxpayers?
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i don't believe a person making 50k doesn't pay taxes. the top 20% own all the wealth, why shouldn't they pay all the taxes?
 
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