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I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read more:

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Addressed to Tettsuo, and Sangha,

I look to see if I can find the story, but I recall hearing last week on the news a prime example. It involved a 20 year old young white man heading home to meet his parents curfew of midnight. The young man was only blocks from his home in a solidly middle class neighborhood, when he was jumped by a group of five black teens and one black adult male. The white male was beaten so badly that not only did he almost die, but will have to now undergo plastic surgery on his face and jaw.

As the attack was happening the victim recalls hearing the assailants saying things like 'beat this cracker good', and 'you in the wrong place white boy..' etc. That was backed up by a prosecution witness.

The hate crimes division refused to pick up the case. Why? If this were a young black man with his future ahead of him and white assailants, the statements made during the beating would have been enough to level hate crime charges. Yet none are charged in this case.

That is wrong IMHO.

j-mac
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

j-mac said:
Addressed to Tettsuo, and Sangha,

I look to see if I can find the story, but I recall hearing last week on the news a prime example. It involved a 20 year old young white man heading home to meet his parents curfew of midnight. The young man was only blocks from his home in a solidly middle class neighborhood, when he was jumped by a group of five black teens and one black adult male. The white male was beaten so badly that not only did he almost die, but will have to now undergo plastic surgery on his face and jaw.

As the attack was happening the victim recalls hearing the assailants saying things like 'beat this cracker good', and 'you in the wrong place white boy..' etc. That was backed up by a prosecution witness.

The hate crimes division refused to pick up the case. Why? If this were a young black man with his future ahead of him and white assailants, the statements made during the beating would have been enough to level hate crime charges. Yet none are charged in this case.

That is wrong IMHO.

j-mac
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I agree with you, that would be wrong if it occurred. But, this is not a failing of the law, but a failing of it's proper implementation and enforcement.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

j-mac said:
Addressed to Tettsuo, and Sangha,

I look to see if I can find the story, but I recall hearing last week on the news a prime example. It involved a 20 year old young white man heading home to meet his parents curfew of midnight. The young man was only blocks from his home in a solidly middle class neighborhood, when he was jumped by a group of five black teens and one black adult male. The white male was beaten so badly that not only did he almost die, but will have to now undergo plastic surgery on his face and jaw.

As the attack was happening the victim recalls hearing the assailants saying things like 'beat this cracker good', and 'you in the wrong place white boy..' etc. That was backed up by a prosecution witness.

The hate crimes division refused to pick up the case. Why? If this were a young black man with his future ahead of him and white assailants, the statements made during the beating would have been enough to level hate crime charges. Yet none are charged in this case.

That is wrong IMHO.

j-mac
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I am not going to address your incomplete memory of this attack except to say that the perfect is not the enemy of the good
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

ecofarm said:
Americans here need to read their hate crime legislation and some case history, this is pathetic. People taking positions when they have no idea what they're talking about.
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Who is taking positions on hate crime? Seems you're the one talking all about it every other post. Spud is in Australia, so he's not American. So who is left?
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Catawba said:
Sounds like stupidity was the biggest factor here.
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Maybe you'd like to pin medals on the perps.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

American said:
Who is taking positions on hate crime? Seems you're the one talking all about it every other post. Spud is in Australia, so he's not American. So who is left?
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People don't even know that one must establish prior, organized activities or personal collections, establishing that the crime WAS NOT PERSONAL for a hate crime charge. For a hate crime charge, the motive must, indeed, be political - basically, terrorism. If it was a personal thing or the person has no established history of hate activities, it is not a hate crime. Calling someone a Jew before you shoot them does not make a hate crime. They'd have to find anti-Jew history, activities, memberships or material in your possession (and the person can't really be someone you have a relationship with - that doesn't make any damn sense if you know anything about hate crime law); thus, establish that the crime, once again, was not personally, financially or otherwise motivated.


It's can't be "oh, he turned into a Nazi today". No dude, you gotta establish that he is and was a Nazi with physical evidence and that's why he did it.


Ignorance. All over the place.
 
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Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

American said:
Who is taking positions on hate crime? Seems you're the one talking all about it every other post. Spud is in Australia, so he's not American. So who is left?
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No, no one has taken a position on hate crimes in this thread about hate crimes. :roll:
 
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Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

theplaydrive said:
Actually, the man who kills a woman has less potential and actual societal effects than the man who kills a minority so they are still different. Hate crimes acknowledge these effects. You can debate whether or not it should acknowledge these effects, but it's pretty clear that hate crimes affect society more than non-hate crimes so, in one sense, they are "more important" not because the life hurt or taken is more valuable but because the crime itself had a larger impact on society - I think that impact should be noted. Moreover, the only people who would become more racially divided or "sexuality divided" because of hate crime laws are people who are racist and homophobic to begin with so I'm not buying that argument.
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Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with the concept of hate crime statutes and the protected status of certain individuals is automatically racist and homophobic? Because that is patently untrue.

I do not expect you to "buy" my argument, because I'm not actually arguing with you. Rather, I'm expressing an opinion on hate-crime statutes that is different from your position, and explaining my reasoning. You do not accept my reasoning; I do not accept yours.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

sangha said:
I don't have time ow to go googling.
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Then do not state as fact that women have special status under hate crimes statutes based solely on their gender when there has not been a single case of a mysoginist murderer being charged with a hate crime.

No, they are not the same exact murder. One is motivated by bias, and one is not. And we have a long tradition of punishing the murders of one class of people more harshly than others. I already gave an example of that. You are free to disapprove of that.
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Yes, they are the exact same murder. One murder is based upon hatred of women; the other is based upon hatred of minoritites, yet one is prosecuted as a hate crime and one is not. The law thus declares that the murder of females based solely upon their gender is less important to society than the murder of minorities based solely upon their race/religion/ethnicity/sexual orientation. If you do not see the dicotomy of such "special" status in a free and equal society, then we will have to agree to disagree.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Tettsuo said:
In your example, the murderer would get charged with 1st degree murder for both situation simply because his bias drove him to commit the act. Without the hate crime laws, they perp could be charged for a lesser crime as it may be seen as 2nd degree or manslaughter depending on how the encounter occurred.

So the fact is, hate crime laws equalize the law against those that make a point to target people because of some bias and charges them appropriately. If you say you hate Mexicans and go out of your way to have conflicts with them that eventually leads to you murdering a person of Mexican descend, isn't that pre-meditated? Shouldn't the prep receive a harsher penalty for the crime as you would if you stalked and murdered women? You can't call it manslaughter can you because the perp made every effort to create a situation where this would occur or just showed he was willing to harm a person because of his bias alone.

I think being against hate crime laws is to be against fairness of the law. State of mind is always relevant.
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So you are saying in the bolded part that murdering a person of Mexican descent because one hates Mexican should be punished more harshly than a crime where one merely stalked and murdered women, even though all the crimes were premeditated? This is fairness to you... why? Because stalking and murdering women because one hates women is less of a crime against society than murdering a minority because one hates minorities?

I disagree. Premeditated murder is premeditated murder. The law should judge them equally.
 
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Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Umm... I don't understand hate crime laws at all. I know their meant for if you kill someone of another race under suspicion of "hating them".... but people who commit crimes against others of the same race still hate that person..... So aren't all violent crimes technically "Hate crimes"? Because last I checked you don't shoot somebody you like. You don't just walk up to your buddy and be like "What's up" and shoot them. It doesn't happen.. All violent crimes are fueled by hate, no matter the race of the victim, so I find hate crime laws rather stupid.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Krasche said:
Umm... I don't understand hate crime laws at all. I know their meant for if you kill someone of another race under suspicion of "hating them".... but people who commit crimes against others of the same race still hate that person..... So aren't all violent crimes technically "Hate crimes"? Because last I checked you don't shoot somebody you like. You don't just walk up to your buddy and be like "What's up" and shoot them. It doesn't happen.. All violent crimes are fueled by hate, no matter the race of the victim, so I find hate crime laws rather stupid.
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Hate crimes are based on hating entire groups, not hating individuals, so no, not all murders are hate crimes.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

DiAnna said:
Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with the concept of hate crime statutes and the protected status of certain individuals is automatically racist and homophobic? Because that is patently untrue.
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Um no, I'm not. I said that anyone who becomes more racially divided because of the existence of hate crimes is already racist to begin with so the idea hate crime legislation increases racial division matters is irrelevant to me when considering it's effect on society.

I do not expect you to "buy" my argument, because I'm not actually arguing with you. Rather, I'm expressing an opinion on hate-crime statutes that is different from your position, and explaining my reasoning. You do not accept my reasoning; I do not accept yours.
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No, I accept anyone's belief that hate crime legislation should not exist even if I do not subscribe to them. What I do not accept is your refusal to acknowledge the fact that hate crimes are not "equal" to non-hate crimes. Hate crimes have greater actual and potential societal effects than non-hate crimes. To deny this is to deny reality.
 
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Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

theplaydrive said:
Hate crimes are based on hating entire groups, not hating individuals, so no, not all murders are hate crimes.
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Fair enough. But they didn't kill that entire group, they killed one man who happened to be in that group. The crime is the same regardless of motive.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Krasche said:
Fair enough. But they didn't kill that entire group, they killed one man who happened to be in that group. The crime is the same regardless of motive.
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Not really. Hate crimes have larger potential and actual societal effects than non-hate crimes.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Krasche said:
And why is that?
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Hate crimes increase the morale of hate groups, increase racial/sexuality based tensions in society and have an increased potential for retaliatory actions than non-hate crimes.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

theplaydrive said:
Hate crimes increase the morale of hate groups, increase racial/sexuality based tensions in society and have an increased potential for retaliatory actions than non-hate crimes.
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So say a white man kills a black man, and it's technically a "non-hate" crime, are you saying that hate groups won't identify with the killer/victim, and that they won't start feuding over it just because the killer only hated the individual, and not the entire group? or have you factored in the possibility that it can still be perceived as a hate crime to the general public?
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Krasche said:
So say a white man kills a black man, and it's technically a "non-hate" crime, are you saying that hate groups won't identify with the killer/victim, and that they won't start feuding over it just because the killer only hated the individual, and not the entire group? or have you factored in the possibility that it can still be perceived as a hate crime to the general public?
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Anything can be perceived as a hate crime by the public, but when a crime is clearly a hate crime and proven so in a court of law - all the effects I listed in the previous post have a greater potential of materializing. For example, if the white man in your example kills a black man and he belongs to a white supremacy group, then such groups will see that action as a victory and moral booster, racial tension will escalate in the region or the country and retaliation may occur.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

theplaydrive said:
Anything can be perceived as a hate crime by the public, but when a crime is clearly a hate crime and proven so in a court of law - all the effects I listed in the previous post have a greater potential of materializing. For example, if the white man in your example kills a black man and he belongs to a white supremacy group, then such groups will see that action as a victory and moral booster, racial tension will escalate in the region or the country and retaliation may occur.
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If that is the case, then Hate Crime laws should be abolished. If it isn't a "hate crime" it will not be publically announced as such, just as another murder. Which, if annouced as just a murder, based on your theory, would reduce the possibility of morale boost of hate groups, thus reducing possibility of retaliation.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Krasche said:
Umm... I don't understand hate crime laws at all. I know their meant for if you kill someone of another race under suspicion of "hating them".... but people who commit crimes against others of the same race still hate that person..... So aren't all violent crimes technically "Hate crimes"? Because last I checked you don't shoot somebody you like. You don't just walk up to your buddy and be like "What's up" and shoot them. It doesn't happen.. All violent crimes are fueled by hate, no matter the race of the victim, so I find hate crime laws rather stupid.
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The answer is a couple posts above yours. But I'll quote it since it seems that no one here actually knows wtf a hate crime entails.


ecofarm said:
People don't even know that one must establish prior, organized activities or personal collections, establishing that the crime WAS NOT PERSONAL for a hate crime charge. For a hate crime charge, the motive must, indeed, be political - basically, terrorism. If it was a personal thing or the person has no established history of hate activities, it is not a hate crime. Calling someone a Jew before you shoot them does not make a hate crime. They'd have to find anti-Jew history, activities, memberships or material in your possession (and the person can't really be someone you have a relationship with - that doesn't make any damn sense if you know anything about hate crime law); thus, establish that the crime, once again, was not personally, financially or otherwise motivated.

It's can't be "oh, he turned into a Nazi today". No dude, you gotta establish that he is and was a Nazi with physical evidence and that's why he did it.


Ignorance. All over the place.
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It has nothing to do with "protected groups". There are no "protected groups" in hate crime law. Hate crime is about being a part of an organized effort to terrorize a specific group of people (and that group CAN be heterosexual white middle-class males).

Again, there are no "protected groups". There is merely additional charges for being part of an organized effort to target by group - the crime cannot be personally or financially or otherwise motivated.

This is no different than other organized crime laws. No different than difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder. No different than anti-terrorism laws. Someone, please, get a clue.
 
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Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Krasche said:
If that is the case, then Hate Crime laws should be abolished. If it isn't a "hate crime" it will not be publically announced as such, just as another murder. Which, if annouced as just a murder, based on your theory, would reduce the possibility of morale boost of hate groups, thus reducing possibility of retaliation.
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No, because proof of biased hatred will end up being brought up in the trial as a motive anyway. In other words, the public will have the same knowledge of the criminal regardless of what the crime is called and the same effects of such knowledge that I listed above will be relevant. The only difference is that the criminal will not be tried for creating such societal effects.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Earlier I spoke about a young man in Columbia SC that was attacked by a group of black males...Here is the story with some follow up

Vicki said her son was headed home after
visiting a friend slightly past his midnight curfew. "At 12:07 he wasn't
home, I called him and said 'Carter where are you?'" recounted Vicki.
"He said 'Momma, I'm almost home. I'll be there in just a minute.' At
12:15 I called, but the phone was dead."


Timmons said surveillance video taken in the
area shows four of the suspects running towards Carter, though police
only released video of the suspects walking on Harden Street.
Investigators believe the suspects assaulted Carter and stole his cell
phone before leaving him in the parking lot.


After
the assault, Scott said Carter managed to make it a block down the road
to Edisto Avenue, where a passerby found him two hours later and called
9-1-1. Carter was taken to a local hospital, where he is still in
critical condition.


Vicki said she rushed to the hospital and
found a son she could barely recognize. "I literally bent over him; I
recognized his hand and his hair, and I said 'that's my son,'" Vicki
told WIS News 10.


Carter's family told police the beating was
so severe he required emergency surgery to remove a brain clot. He had
his second surgery Friday afternoon, which was for facial
reconstruction. It's Carter's latest step in a long road to recovery.
"He did nothing to them," said Vicki. "They didn't know him, they didn't
know the kind of person he was, they don't know the kind of man he's
grown up to be and they don't know the lives he's touched. But they
thought he was so less of a person, they thought this would be okay."

snip

Police said Henrey and the seven juveniles he
was with were roaming Five Points, targeting others until they came
across strange. In fact, investigators said the group tried
unsuccessfully to rob or assault at least four other people.
White teen brutally attacked by black teens. Hate crime?
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Then a follow up

COLUMBIA, SC (WISTV) — Prosecutors say the brutal beating of a teenager last week in Columbia’s Five Points doesn't appear to have been racially motivated, but the U.S. attorney is still reviewing the case.

Fifth Circuit Solicitor Dan Johnson, who will prosecute the eight people charged with attacking 18-year-old Carter Strange on June 20 before leaving him for dead, said no evidence suggests the beating was racially motivated other than the race of the people involved. Strange is white; the eight suspects are black.

However, Johnson said his office asked U.S. Attorney Bill Nettles to review the evidence to make sure hate crime charges are not warranted.

A hate crime is legally defined as an attack motivated entirely or primarily by prejudice.

LiveLeak.com - No Hate Crime Charges for 8 Black Youths Accused in Brutal Beating of White Teen?
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Notice that the police asked the FBI to review to make sure that hate crimes charges were NOT warranted. If this were reversed, I am nearly positive that the wording would have been reversed.

Now this area is predominately a young white solid middle class area, here are the demographics...

Five Forks Simpsonville National
Median Household Income: - - $47,223 $44,512
Single Males: - - 12.0% 14.6%
Single Females: - - 9.9% 12.5%
Median Age: - - 32 36
Homes With Kids: - - 38.6% 31.4%
Average Household Size: - - 2.67 2.589
Average Commute Time (Minutes): - - 22.787 26.376

Five Forks People & Five Forks Demographics - Zillow Local Info
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The 2010 Five Forks, SC, population is 13,310. There are 1,726 people per square mile (population density).

Family in Five Forks, SC

The median age is 34.8. The US median is 36.8. 79.63% of people in Five Forks, SC, are married. 5.58% are divorced.

The average household size is 3.07 people. 48.94% of people are married, with children. 4.73% have children, but are single.

Race in Five Forks, SC

88.90% of people are white, 3.55% are black, 4.03% are asian, 0.36% are native american, and 3.16% claim 'Other'.

4.48% of the people in Five Forks, SC, claim hispanic ethnicity (meaning 95.52% are non-hispanic).

snip

Five Forks, SC, violent crime, on a scale from 1 (low crime) to 10, is 4. Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. The US average is 4.

Five Forks, SC, property crime, on a scale from 1 (low) to 10, is 4. Property crime includes the offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson. The object of the theft-type offenses is the taking of money or property, but there is no force or threat of force against the victims. The US average is 4.

Crime in Five Forks, South Carolina
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Now this is an average up and coming area of SC, income above the median for the country, low crime, and advertised as a place to raise young children.

Now the likelihood is that these black youths were not members of this community, so that leads to them premeditating to come to that area to harass people and cause trouble. Again I assert if this were white teens migrating to a black neighborhood to do this than hate crime charges would not be in question. So why is it now?

j-mac
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

DiAnna said:
So you are saying in the bolded part that murdering a person of Mexican descent because one hates Mexican should be punished more harshly than a crime where one merely stalked and murdered women, even though all the crimes were premeditated? This is fairness to you... why? Because stalking and murdering women because one hates women is less of a crime against society than murdering a minority because one hates minorities?

I disagree. Premeditated murder is premeditated murder. The law should judge them equally.
Click to expand...

I was asking a question... reread it.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

DiAnna said:
Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with the concept of hate crime statutes and the protected status of certain individuals is automatically racist and homophobic? Because that is patently untrue.

I do not expect you to "buy" my argument, because I'm not actually arguing with you. Rather, I'm expressing an opinion on hate-crime statutes that is different from your position, and explaining my reasoning. You do not accept my reasoning; I do not accept yours.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that opposition to hate crime laws is necesarily the result of any form of bigotry (though it sometimes may be) but I do believe it requires beliefs that run contrary to our legal traditions going back to the first days of this nations, and beyond.
 
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