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I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read more:

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Only you would think that a court of law would conclude that a murder was motivated by jealousy when there is no evidence of that claim. Any statement about another persons' mental state is not a "statement of fact" because no one can read another persons' mind.

You have no facts. Just claims. From a murderer trying to avoid being convicted of a hate crime. And you take them at their word.
O M F G

This is a HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.
Does the rev have to create his hypothetical situation with "The DA presented evidence from 3 eyewitnesses that stated they observed the subjects arguing about the victim having had sex with 4 different partners while they were supposed to have been dating. The defendant then yelled, "I'm going to kill you for cheating on me. You stupid Jew!" and then proceeded to stab the victim 43 times with a pocket knife." for you to just take it as facts established in a...

HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

i.e. One he created. A fictional situation used as an example......
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

then Obama should be charged with hate crimes for calling the irish drunks. :roll:

When did Obama call the Irish drunks?
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

When did Obama call the Irish drunks?

bet you $20 he is confusing President Barack Obama, with NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who did indeed refer to Irish as inebriated on St. Patrick's Day.

:lol:
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

O M F G

This is a HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

Right, and the hypothetical situation involved a criminal court case.

Does the rev have to create his hypothetical situation with "The DA presented evidence from 3 eyewitnesses that stated they observed the subjects arguing about the victim having had sex with 4 different partners while they were supposed to have been dating. The defendant then yelled, "I'm going to kill you for cheating on me. You stupid Jew!" and then proceeded to stab the victim 43 times with a pocket knife." for you to just take it as facts established in a...

You changed the hypothetical. I wasn't addressing a hypothetical that you hadn't yet posted. I responded to the one Reb actually did post.

HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

i.e. One he created. A fictional situation used as an example......

Right, and I responded to the hypothetical situation he described. I don't know why you think I should have responded to a hypothetical situation that hadn't been posted yet.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

It doesn't matter if he did or not. The Irish aren't really people, anyway.

Hey! Jerk face :p
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Right, and the hypothetical situation involved a criminal court case.



You changed the hypothetical. I wasn't addressing a hypothetical that you hadn't yet posted. I responded to the one Reb actually did post.



Right, and I responded to the hypothetical situation he described. I don't know why you think I should have responded to a hypothetical situation that hadn't been posted yet.

He stated, in his hypothetical situation, that the murder was committed because of jealousy.

What more do you need or are you just being a brick wall to annoy people?
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

He stated, in his hypothetical situation, that the murder was committed because of jealousy.

What more do you need or are you just being a brick wall to annoy people?

Right, but in a court of law, they don't get to examine the accuseds' state of mind because they can't read minds. All they can do is to examine the evidence (and the hypothetical provided no evidence that the killing was motivated by jealousy). The killers yelling "You Jew!!" is evidence that can be used to show (but not prove) bias.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Right, but in a court of law, they don't get to examine the accuseds' state of mind because they can't read minds. All they can do is to examine the evidence (and the hypothetical provided no evidence that the killing was motivated by jealousy). The killers yelling "You Jew!!" is evidence that can be used to show (but not prove) bias.

Oh good grief.... It is his ****ing hypothetical, if he said it was because of jealousy than it was because of jealousy.

Get a clue dude, your are going well out of your way to be annoying.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Infuriated by rejection and infuriated by race are not the same thing at all for many reasons. The former is specific to a person or action, the latter encompasses an entire population regardless of action. The former has little to no societal effects; the former has much greater actual and potential societal effects. Moreover, both cases could be 1st degree or 2nd degree murder depending on whether it's premeditated or not. Hate crime laws acknowledge the fact that crimes based on race, gender, sexuality, etc. are not equal to non-hate based crimes. They aren't equal no matter how you swing it.

I disagree, they are completely equal. A man who kills a woman because he hates women is no different from a man who kills a minority because he hates minorities. Hate crime laws might be a societal "feel good", but it is in reality a societal "inequalitizer" because it quite frankly makes the death of some victims more "heinous" than others for no other reason than the race, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity of the victim. That is not an example of the "law being blind". It's an example making the death of certain individuals more important under the eyes of the law than other individuals based upon discriminatory legal bias.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Oh good grief.... It is his ****ing hypothetical, if he said it was because of jealousy than it was because of jealousy.

Get a clue dude, your are going well out of your way to be annoying.

What you fail to acknowledge is that the jury will have no way of concluding that it was jealousy unless there is some evidence of this. As described, the hypothetical offered no evidence for that conclusion, therefore the jury will not be able to conclude that it was jealousy
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

I disagree, they are completely equal. A man who kills a woman because he hates women is no different from a man who kills a minority because he hates minorities.

Women are just as much of a protected class as race and religion.

Hate crime laws might be a societal "feel good", but it is in reality a societal "inequalitizer" because it quite frankly makes the death of some victims more "heinous" than others for no other reason than the race, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity of the victim. That is not an example of the "law being blind". It's an example making the death of certain individuals more important under the eyes of the law than other individuals based upon discriminatory legal bias.

No, hate crime laws are a societal good. It has nothing to do with making people feel good. That is not the purpose of our criminal justice system. And our laws have always judged some types of crimes as more heinous than others. The law has distinguished between different classes of murder and assigned greater penalties to those it deems more deleterious to society at large and in some cases, distinguishes on the basis of who was murdered. For example, the murder of a police officer carries a greater sentence than killing a civilian.
 
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Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Women are just as much of a protected class as race and religion.

I'm aware that tens of thousands or more women are murdered in this country every year. I'm unaware of a single one prosecuted under hate-crimes statues based solely on her status as a female. Could you enlighten me?

No, hate crime laws are a societal good. It has nothing to do with making people feel good. That is not the purpose of our criminal justice system. And our laws have always judged some types of crimes as more heinous than others. The law has distinguished between different classes of murder and assigned greater penalties to those it deems more deleterious to society at large and in some cases, distinguishes on the basis of who was murdered. For example, the murder of a police officer carries a greater sentence than killing a civilian.

We are not talking about different classes of murder. We are talking about the same, exact murder but one is prosecuted as a hate crime based upon legal discriminatory bias alone. Quite frankly, it seems for deleterious to society at large to give the lives of certain citizens more value than the lives of others. Do you feel your loved ones lives are of less value than the life of another average individual who just happened to fall into a "protected" category? And yes, I'm aware that police officer lives are more highly valued by the legal system than an ordinary, every-day civilian. I disapprove of that, frankly. The lives of police officers are no more valuable than the lives of those they supposedly "serve and protect."
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

I disagree, they are completely equal. A man who kills a woman because he hates women is no different from a man who kills a minority because he hates minorities. Hate crime laws might be a societal "feel good", but it is in reality a societal "inequalitizer" because it quite frankly makes the death of some victims more "heinous" than others for no other reason than the race, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity of the victim. That is not an example of the "law being blind". It's an example making the death of certain individuals more important under the eyes of the law than other individuals based upon discriminatory legal bias.
Actually, the man who kills a woman has less potential and actual societal effects than the man who kills a minority so they are still different. Hate crimes acknowledge these effects. You can debate whether or not it should acknowledge these effects, but it's pretty clear that hate crimes affect society more than non-hate crimes so, in one sense, they are "more important" not because the life hurt or taken is more valuable but because the crime itself had a larger impact on society - I think that impact should be noted. Moreover, the only people who would become more racially divided or "sexuality divided" because of hate crime laws are people who are racist and homophobic to begin with so I'm not buying that argument.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

I'm aware that tens of thousands or more women are murdered in this country every year. I'm unaware of a single one prosecuted under hate-crimes statues based solely on her status as a female. Could you enlighten me?

I don't have time ow to go googling.



We are not talking about different classes of murder. We are talking about the same, exact murder but one is prosecuted as a hate crime based upon legal discriminatory bias alone. Quite frankly, it seems for deleterious to society at large to give the lives of certain citizens more value than the lives of others. Do you feel your loved ones lives are of less value than the life of another average individual who just happened to fall into a "protected" category? And yes, I'm aware that police officer lives are more highly valued by the legal system than an ordinary, every-day civilian. I disapprove of that, frankly. The lives of police officers are no more valuable than the lives of those they supposedly "serve and protect."

No, they are not the same exact murder. One is motivated by bias, and one is not. And we have a long tradition of punishing the murders of one class of people more harshly than others. I already gave an example of that. You are free to disapprove of that.
[/QUOTE]
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Actually, the man who kills a woman has less potential and actual societal effects than the man who kills a minority so they are still different. Hate crimes acknowledge these effects. You can debate whether or not it should acknowledge these effects, but it's pretty clear that hate crimes affect society more than non-hate crimes so, in one sense, they are "more important" not because the life hurt or taken is more valuable but because the crime itself had a larger impact on society - I think that impact should be noted. Moreover, the only people who would become more racially divided or "sexuality divided" because of hate crime laws are people who are racist and homophobic to begin with so I'm not buying that argument.

And it's important to note that the state prosecutes criminals, not to make the victim "whole" or to gain revenge for the victim, but to protect society. That's why the State prosecutes, and not the victim (or the victims family)
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

I disagree, they are completely equal. A man who kills a woman because he hates women is no different from a man who kills a minority because he hates minorities. Hate crime laws might be a societal "feel good", but it is in reality a societal "inequalitizer" because it quite frankly makes the death of some victims more "heinous" than others for no other reason than the race, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity of the victim. That is not an example of the "law being blind". It's an example making the death of certain individuals more important under the eyes of the law than other individuals based upon discriminatory legal bias.
In your example, the murderer would get charged with 1st degree murder for both situation simply because his bias drove him to commit the act. Without the hate crime laws, they perp could be charged for a lesser crime as it may be seen as 2nd degree or manslaughter depending on how the encounter occurred.

So the fact is, hate crime laws equalize the law against those that make a point to target people because of some bias and charges them appropriately. If you say you hate Mexicans and go out of your way to have conflicts with them that eventually leads to you murdering a person of Mexican descend, isn't that pre-meditated? Shouldn't the prep receive a harsher penalty for the crime as you would if you stalked and murdered women? You can't call it manslaughter can you because the perp made every effort to create a situation where this would occur or just showed he was willing to harm a person because of his bias alone.

I think being against hate crime laws is to be against fairness of the law. State of mind is always relevant.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

What you fail to acknowledge is that the jury will have no way of concluding that it was jealousy unless there is some evidence of this. As described, the hypothetical offered no evidence for that conclusion, therefore the jury will not be able to conclude that it was jealousy

And do you believe that jury's are so predictable? If that were the case then Casey Anthony would be behind bars today. But she isn't is she?

j-mac
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

In your example, the murderer would get charged with 1st degree murder for both situation simply because his bias drove him to commit the act. Without the hate crime laws, they perp could be charged for a lesser crime as it may be seen as 2nd degree or manslaughter depending on how the encounter occurred.

So the fact is, hate crime laws equalize the law against those that make a point to target people because of some bias and charges them appropriately. If you say you hate Mexicans and go out of your way to have conflicts with them that eventually leads to you murdering a person of Mexican descend, isn't that pre-meditated? Shouldn't the prep receive a harsher penalty for the crime as you would if you stalked and murdered women? You can't call it manslaughter can you because the perp made every effort to create a situation where this would occur or just showed he was willing to harm a person because of his bias alone.

I think being against hate crime laws is to be against fairness of the law. State of mind is always relevant.

Hate crime laws are an attempt to legislate morality. The disparity between those say prosecuted for white on black crime in the hate crime category, is at much more disparity than those prosecuted for black on white hate crime even when overt evidence shows such.

It is, imo as it is handled now 'White guilt' in motion.

j-mac
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Hate crime laws are an attempt to legislate morality.
All laws are an attempt to legislate morality.
The disparity between those say prosecuted for white on black crime in the hate crime category, is at much more disparity than those prosecuted for black on white hate crime even when overt evidence shows such.

It is, imo as it is handled now 'White guilt' in motion.
You'll have to give some proof of that. The motivation must attributable to bias for hate crime laws to be applicable. In the article posted, if the crime was motivated by the perps' bias against whites, hate crime laws should be applicable. Passing a light sentence and putting these cowards back on the street would endanger other whites as their bias would potentially drive them to commit the same crime again.
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

And do you believe that jury's are so predictable? If that were the case then Casey Anthony would be behind bars today. But she isn't is she?

j-mac

Can you explain to me how the jury would come to the conclusion that the murder was motivated by jealousy when the jury did not hear *any* evidence of that?
 
Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Hate crime laws are an attempt to legislate morality. The disparity between those say prosecuted for white on black crime in the hate crime category, is at much more disparity than those prosecuted for black on white hate crime even when overt evidence shows such.

It is, imo as it is handled now 'White guilt' in motion.

j-mac

Hate crimes laws are an attempt to apply appropriate penalties based on the damage done to society. Black on white crime is prosecuted with much more disparity that white on black crime, even when overt evidence shows such. It is, IMO, as sit is handled now "Black Guilty" in motion
 
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