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Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

Rick Perry acting in an official capacity as "Governor Rick Perry" is the initiator of a Prayer Rally whose main purpose is the advancement of religion, specifically Christianity.

Doing so violates the establishment clause of the US constitution.

Case Law shows that the test to determine if there is an establishment clause violation is the "Lemon Test".

It has three parts. You need only fail one for it to be a violation.

1. Government needs a secular purpose. (No secular purpose to the prayer rally)

2. It must not have the primary purpose of advancing religion (The prayer rally's primary purpose is to advance religion, specifically Christianity)

3. It must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion (We could argue all day about what is "excessive" but it doesn't matter because it's already failed the first two.)

What does Rick Perry have to do with this thread? We were talking about the Governor of Oklahoma. I guess since she didn't fit your argument about the Establishment Clause well enough you had to bring in some other example. Kind of a lame debate tactic.
 
Which "she" are you referring to?

Yea... Establishment Clause. Really. :)

Can you explain how proclamations for prayer and a Christian lead prayer rally is not a violation?

I've already stated numerous times on this thread how it is. Did you read those posts?

Sure. It's called, "religious freedom", and it's guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.
 
What does Rick Perry have to do with this thread? We were talking about the Governor of Oklahoma. I guess since she didn't fit your argument about the Establishment Clause well enough you had to bring in some other example. Kind of a lame debate tactic.

If you go back and read the earlier threads, you would see that Rick Perry was brought up because he did the exact same thing as the OK governor.

For the record, the OK governor is also violating the establishment clause.

Please, go back and read the arguments earlier in this thread. You're making arguments that have already been discussed.
 
Sure. It's called, "religious freedom", and it's guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.

It's guaranteed to citizens. "The government" of which Governor Rick Perry is acting on behalf of, does not.
 
Your error is the same as Taylor's. You are going at it backwards. Science does not prove, it tests and falsifies.

We can use logic to falsify most stated conceptions of God as you did in another post, e.g., [the idea of an "all good" and "all powerful" god makes that god logically inconsistent in a world where evil exists. That god can not exist.]

The statement that there is no God can be disproven by demonstrating the existence of God or god, that is, an existent with the qualities of God. The test I outlined would be proof of the existence of a God. Would it prove the existence of the Christian God. No. Not the point. Would it prove that God created the universe. Nope. Again, not the point. It would offer proof of a God. Without some sort of alternate explanation for the test results any continued belief in atheism would be based on faith.

Every experiment that test natural cause and effect is a test of atheism. That is, an atheist would predict that an existent would react to stimuli based on the nature of the existent and the stimulus rather than attributing it to God.

How do you disprove magic? Is the lack of belief in magic an article of faith?

I don't want to digress too much, but I suspect that we're in agreement on some things. I think perhaps we're (I'm) just getting caught up on the language.

I think it all boils down to the definition of god, whether it is falsifiable, and then if the atheist is simply in disbelief of the claim or making the counter-claim.
 
On "The Response" leadership page he's listed as "Governor Rick Perry, initiator of The Response"

Leadership | The Response: August 6, 2011

On the homepage is a big video of him that starts out, "I'm Governor Rick Perry..."

The Response: A call to prayer for a nation in crisis

Here's where he made the proclamation to pray for rain:

Office of the Governor Rick Perry - [Proclamation] Gov. Perry Issues Proclamation for Days of Prayer for Rain in Texas

Here's what The Response spokesperson had to say about the event...



See... They want people of all faith to come and worship Jesus :/

I'm on a mobile device right now, didn't see on the government website but they may have taken it down, it wasn't there, or I'm just not finding it.

Looks like he's trying to distance himself from the supporters of the event.

Rick Perry says he doesn

So, what you are saying is that you were wrong.

"The Response" can mention that they have a guest speaker, who just happens to be the Governor, all they wish.

Every thing the governor does is not "on behalf of the government" all the time.

He did make the proclamation, so what? He didn't specify which god, or who to pray to.
 
Who said anything about that? Now you are arguing that proof that a God exists does not disprove multiple Gods.
No, I'm saying that by selecting an operational definition for god, and trying to "prove" that, does not in itself prove the existence of god. You can only assume your operational definition is accurate.

But yes, I am amused that you believe you're taking a rational, scientific approach in basing your operational definition on a text written thousands of years ago. If you get this being to part the red sea, have you proven that "God" exists, or that "Poseidon" exists? or Oceanus? Or Moses? Or Baal? Or Chalchiuhtlicue? Or an alien being with powers to control the elements? Or one with psychic powers to make you believe you saw things you did not?

You are going at this backwards. The existence of a God does not prove Christianity, monotheism or any other religious tenet and that was never the point. It would disprove atheism.
No, I was saying that we cannot disprove atheism because we cannot prove the existence of a god.

Atheists decry theology as arbitrary and completely based on faith, but on the other hand espouse their own untestable, faith-based world view. Again, atheism is akin to a theory that deities do not exist. You may be able to "prove" through logical inconsistency that particular deities do not exist (at least as specified in a particular faith), but that will never prove the belief that "deities do not exist." Yes, you may greatly increase confidence in that belief, but never do you prove it to be true.

So, from a scientific standpoint, we compare evidence consistent with theism versus evidence consistent with atheism and derive our conclusion based on the weight of the evidence. But we can neither prove or disprove either scientifically.


Are you kidding? You check to see if there is any sort of device at work that could cause it. There is nothing difficult about that.

There is no reason why we can't conduct the test in an environment that is more easily controlled, though, if that is your concern.
LOL - and you're confident you know of all such devices to look for and how to check whether they were used? Absurd. Five hundred years ago you could have conducted multiple tests in tighty controlled environments to verify whether a strange man claiming to have omniscient knowledge of the terrain, the weather, the location of roaming herds, human settlements in unexplored lands, moving armies, and spot-on accuracy of the geography of the world.

Of course, to be sure, these sixteenth century philosopher-scientists would simply have had to rule out any device at work that could explain all of this, and there probably would have been "nothing difficult" about verifying that the information didn't come from a data feed sent by a satellite in geostationary orbit via the k band of the electromagnetic spectrum. It's all very simple, really.

You are not taking a scientific position. Your view is DEFINITELY anti science. You are pretending that all proof is invalid or equally valid, whether it is vetted through the scientific method or not.
You are only demonstrating that you don't understand science. The scientific method doesn't produce "proof" it produces evidence that is consistent or inconsistent with a theory or hypothesis. It never aims to prove a theory or hypothesis, because the process is inductive and therefore cannot logically provide proof.

Again, you are going at it backwards. I am not talking about proving any theory, but disproving the theory that God(s) do not exist.
You are trying to make an argument based on falsifiability and have suggested that the atheistic view can be falsified by demonstrating the existence of a god. The problem with your position is that you are unable to demonstrate how we can conclusively prove that a god exists.

You suggest this may be accomplished by asking god to perform a series of tasks that only god could do (i.e. miracles). As I have tried to stress, none of those acts, none of those "miracles" can be proven to be miracles scientifically. You suggest ways we might falsify a miracle ("check for a device that might explain it") but you cannot prove the act itself is a miracle.

To claim otherwise shows your logic to be irrational - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
 
Instead he wishes to stir up trouble. If he was just as private as Washington then few would bother to take notice.

He/she isn't stirring up trouble.

He/she didn't figure a bunch of buffoons would take offense to something as small as suggesting that those who are religious pray.

:eyeroll:
 
Your error is the same as Taylor's. You are going at it backwards. Science does not prove, it tests and falsifies.
I have contended this all along. It's actually you that are making this error with your belief that by observing the act of miracles ("only a God could [part the red sea] on command and without any other trickery") we can prove the existence of god.

You suggest ways in which we might falsify this belief ("Are you kidding? You check to see if there is any sort of device at work that could cause it. There is nothing difficult about that.") but then go on to make the erroneous conclusion that the absence of evidence of any trickery is evidence of absence of any trickery and thus, we have "proven" god exists.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
 
So, what you are saying is that you were wrong.

"The Response" can mention that they have a guest speaker, who just happens to be the Governor, all they wish.

Yea... that's not what's happening. He's the "initiator" of the response. He's not a "guest speaker". Even if he was a guest speaker, if he's there in an official capacity as Governor... which he is, it's a violation.

Every thing the governor does is not "on behalf of the government" all the time.

Agreed, as I've stated before on this very thread. If he's there as private citizen Rick Perry... I have no problem (constitutionally).

He did make the proclamation, so what? He didn't specify which god, or who to pray to.

Government don't have to be promoting one religion over another religion for there to be an establishment violation. Promoting religion over non-religion is enough.

Just because the prayer rally isn't on the government webpage, doesn't mean he's not endorsing it in his official capacity as Governor.

He didn't start the video "Hi, I'm Rick Perry". The leadership page doesn't say, "Rick Perry is our initiator". It says "GOVERNOR Rick Perry..."
 
He/she isn't stirring up trouble.

He/she didn't figure a bunch of buffoons would take offense to something as small as suggesting that those who are religious pray.

:eyeroll:

This is a strawman. Nobody is "taking offense".

We're stating that it's a violation of the establishment clause.
 
This is a strawman. Nobody is "taking offense".

We're stating that it's a violation of the establishment clause.

Well, since you apparently cannot be convinced that this isn't a violation of your god, the establishment clause,.. I just have one question then..

What are you going to do about it? Huh?
 
He/she isn't stirring up trouble.

He/she didn't figure a bunch of buffoons would take offense to something as small as suggesting that those who are religious pray.

:eyeroll:

They figured just that. That is what this is about. They want to draw out those bothered by such displays and hold them up for attack. You don't honestly think these governors are stupid enough to believe that praying for rain is going to work? You underestimate them.

Our founders considered it. Both Madison and Jefferson were very concerned about statements of faith from agents of the state. Jefferson avoided them. Madison repudiated legislative chaplains and national days of prayer after retiring from public life based on experience. Even Washington was careful about his displays of faith not just in his professional life, but in his private life, as well.
 
So you believe that their should be one official history that every school should teach? I don't know what your point is here.

I think there is much history both good and bad that has been overlooked for feel good stuff.

Washington's farewell address is not the law of the land and his thoughts on general value of religion are not that important. Why should it be taught?

I don't believe his general values should be taught as such. I think his farewell address is a pretty important part of history that I'd venture a guess few have ever read.

Besides, that as I pointed out, it is not at all the same. Washington was giving his general opinion on the value of religion as it concerned civics. He was not using the power of his office to encourage a specific practice of religion, in this example.

Saying that the good of the country can not be seperated from a religious belief is pretty much encouraging religion. You are perfectly free to disagree just as being a citizen also he had a right to note.
 
Well, since you apparently cannot be convinced that this isn't a violation of your god, the establishment clause,.. I just have one question then..

What are you going to do about it? Huh?

I can be convinced that this isn't a violation of the establishment clause (The laws by which our country are governed, not my god...) by providing a secular reason for this event and by showing that it's primary purpose is not the advancement of religion. Or, Rick Perry can state that he's not there in his official government capacity and is only there as a private citizen.

Regarding what I'll do about it...

I'll support (financially and in other ways) organizations like the Freedom From Religion Foundation that are filing a lawsuit against him. And I will not vote for him (since I live in Texas), in any other election since he can't maintain the oath of his office which includes upholding the constitution.
 
You always seem to argue around the edges without making any relevant points.

It is not codified or statuory law. It is case law.

It is not. It's a guide certain jurists use while as I note, others reject. Jurists cant just reject case law.

Any type of law can be interepreted in different ways. So?

But it can't be outright rejected.

SlackMaster has made an argument that it cannot pass the first two tests. Sure, someone could interepret it differently but they would have to do so in a way that stands up to scrutiny by other courts. If they can offer no workable precedent then their interpretation will be discarded. Do you have some sort of viable interpretation that differs?

And a proclamation of prayer by a government official has withstood that scrutiny.
 
And a proclamation of prayer by a government official has withstood that scrutiny.

Well... that's not entirely true. It was at one point ruled unconstitutional. That ruling has since been overturned.

There are some that question the Lemon Test, but it is still in use as of today. Some rulings side with prayer, some rulings side against prayer (as you've shown in previous posts) but they still used this measuring stick "the lemon test" to determine what stays and what goes.
 
They figured just that. That is what this is about. They want to draw out those bothered by such displays and hold them up for attack. You don't honestly think these governors are stupid enough to believe that praying for rain is going to work? You underestimate them.

Our founders considered it. Both Madison and Jefferson were very concerned about statements of faith from agents of the state. Jefferson avoided them. Madison repudiated legislative chaplains and national days of prayer after retiring from public life based on experience. Even Washington was careful about his displays of faith not just in his professional life, but in his private life, as well.

You may speculate all you wish.
I can speculate too...

I speculate that they didn't think people would get offended by it... and that they were doing it to help bring some hope to their constituents that did have faith in a higher power that they can have some say on the matter... that they have some power left to change the course of the weather...
 
I can be convinced that this isn't a violation of the establishment clause (The laws by which our country are governed, not my god...) by providing a secular reason for this event and by showing that it's primary purpose is not the advancement of religion. Or, Rick Perry can state that he's not there in his official government capacity and is only there as a private citizen.

Regarding what I'll do about it...

I'll support (financially and in other ways) organizations like the Freedom From Religion Foundation that are filing a lawsuit against him. And I will not vote for him (since I live in Texas), in any other election since he can't maintain the oath of his office which includes upholding the constitution.

Or... you know.... you could just ignore his request since he obviously wasn't talking to you..... .. You know... it wouldn't be that hard....
 
Well... that's not entirely true. It was at one point ruled unconstitutional. That ruling has since been overturned.

It's something every or nearly every president has done and not likely to ever be overturned.

There are some that question the Lemon Test, but it is still in use as of today.

Yes it is.

Some rulings side with prayer, some rulings side against prayer (as you've shown in previous posts) but they still used this measuring stick "the lemon test" to determine what stays and what goes.

*Some* use it.
 
Im still waiting for someone to show what law was created respecting an establishment of religion.
 
It's guaranteed to citizens. "The government" of which Governor Rick Perry is acting on behalf of, does not.

Last time I checked, Rick Perry is a citizen of the United States. Also, politicians don't check their civil rights at the door, when they're elected. Unless Perry inacts some law, order, or legislation, he's nowhere in the neighborhood of violating the 1st Amendment.
 
Well... that's not entirely true. It was at one point ruled unconstitutional. That ruling has since been overturned.

There are some that question the Lemon Test, but it is still in use as of today. Some rulings side with prayer, some rulings side against prayer (as you've shown in previous posts) but they still used this measuring stick "the lemon test" to determine what stays and what goes.

I question the carte blanche use of the Lemon Test in the absence of government force.
 
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