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Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

American said:
Hundreds of years ago there was no proof or method to prove the earth was spherical, yet now we know it is. Who knows what we'll discover in several hundred more years.
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Agreed, but whether or not the earth is round is a falsifiable proposition. God on the other hand... isn't. (If anyone would like to give a falsifiable definition for their god, I'm all ears).

Also, until those making the claim for their god meet their burden of proof, those who do not believe are fully justified in doing so.
 
Ikari said:
Well I don't think we have to be unreasonable here. I mean the governor saying that people should pray for rain, that's not violation of church and state, nor the establishment clause. Now if he said "burn down mosques because they are an affront to our Christian God" or "hunt down and destroy atheists!"; then maybe we can be saying that it's over the line. But what he said there was not over the line. On some level we must retain our common sense else we won't be allowed to do anything.
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I would agree with you that it's a rather innocuous and mild violation of the establishment clause, but a violation none the less.

Can you explain using the Lemon test cited above how this is not a violation?
 
SlackMaster said:
Agreed, but whether or not the earth is round is a falsifiable proposition. God on the other hand... isn't. (If anyone would like to give a falsifiable definition for their god, I'm all ears).

Also, until those making the claim for their god meet their burden of proof, those who do not believe are fully justified in doing so.
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Why do we even care who or what people believe in? People are allowed to believe and practice as they see fit. So long as they aren't infringing upon the rights of others, they should do as they like. So people believe in god, who cares? So the governor of OK is asking people to pray for rain, what's the big f'n deal? He ain't making me go to Church. He ain't trying to force me to believe. My disbelief is still firmly intact.

I think some people are just making an mountain out of a mole hill with this issue. Calm down.
 
SlackMaster said:
I would agree with you that it's a rather innocuous and mild violation of the establishment clause, but a violation none the less.

Can you explain using the Lemon test cited above how this is not a violation?
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Can you explain how my rights are being violated? I'll care when that happens.
 
SlackMaster said:
I don't think anyone made the argument that those specific words are in the constitution,
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When you state "I'm a firm believer in the separation of church and state. I find this kind of act unconstitutional." you making the claim that separation of church and state in the constitution.In order to claim something in unconstitutional there has to be something in the constitution to back it up. Since there is no such thing as separation of church in the constitution then it is blatantly false to make a claim that something in unconstitutional because it violates separation of church and state. If the governor made a law requiring that we pray to a specific god for rain then it would actually be a violation of the 1st amendment seeing how congress is not supposed to enact laws that respect the establishment of religion.

but check out supreme court rulings over the years.

Specifically Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971)
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The supreme court ruled wrong.
 
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Polotick said:
Be very careful what you ask for, god/s/esses see things their own ways.
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And? They will regardless of how I pray, wouldn't you think? Nevermind the fact that tornado alley is involved.
 
How stupid can one be? Well it is Oklahoma. So it fits the local mentality.
 
1Perry said:
Also check out what Congress does to start off their day.

The Office of the Chaplain, United States House of Representatives
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History does not make something right.

See Marsh v. Chambers (1983)

"Standing alone, historical patterns cannot justify contemporary violations of constitutional guarantees..."

Walz v. Tax Commission of the state of New York (1970)

"No one acquires a vested or protected right in violation of the constitution by long use, even when that span of time covers our entire national existence and indeed predates it."

By that same logic one could have argued that slavery was okay because we've been doing it for so many years.
 
BDBoop said:
And? They will regardless of how I pray, wouldn't you think? Nevermind the fact that tornado alley is involved.
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:D

At least try to keep them in OK, we don't need any here in KS.
 
Ikari said:
Why do we even care who or what people believe in?
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The thing is, we dont care what you believe in. However, i get to choose to agree or pick-apart your belief system because i can. Just like you can do that same of mine or lack of.
If i was your neighbor, and everyday at 1PM i placed a 15' ladder on top of my home and yelled "help me, the have me surrounded", you would either think crazy or silly. For all you know, this could be my form or religion. Kinda weird,huh?
 
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Ikari said:
Why do we even care who or what people believe in? People are allowed to believe and practice as they see fit. So long as they aren't infringing upon the rights of others, they should do as they like. So people believe in god, who cares? So the governor of OK is asking people to pray for rain, what's the big f'n deal? He ain't making me go to Church. He ain't trying to force me to believe. My disbelief is still firmly intact.

I think some people are just making an mountain out of a mole hill with this issue. Calm down.
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I've very calm and not at all upset. This prayer doesn't upset me.

The question isn't if it's a "big deal" or not. It's whether or not it violates the constitution.
 
SlackMaster said:
History does not make something right.

See Marsh v. Chambers (1983)

"Standing alone, historical patterns cannot justify contemporary violations of constitutional guarantees..."

Walz v. Tax Commission of the state of New York (1970)

"No one acquires a vested or protected right in violation of the constitution by long use, even when that span of time covers our entire national existence and indeed predates it."

By that same logic one could have argued that slavery was okay because we've been doing it for so many years.
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You say it's wrong. This was started with the Founders. Obviously they felt otherwise. They didn't ban slavery but yet continued to practice it.
 
SlackMaster said:
Agreed, but whether or not the earth is round is a falsifiable proposition. God on the other hand... isn't. (If anyone would like to give a falsifiable definition for their god, I'm all ears).

Also, until those making the claim for their god meet their burden of proof, those who do not believe are fully justified in doing so.
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So the flat-earthers were correct until the round-earthers proved them wrong.
 
Polotick said:
That was a little rude. Until you've walked that road you're just speculating.
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I have the proverbial tshirt. The only value in AA is the group therapy, which is countered by the higher power/po wittle me i have a disease bs. No, you have a behavior and impulse control problem. By not drinking you are demonstrating that you do have power over it. There is absolutely no reason that you need to walk the line on alcohol. It leads you too bad places, quit. That simple.
 
1Perry said:
You say it's wrong. This was started with the Founders. Obviously they felt otherwise. They didn't ban slavery but yet continued to practice it.
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They also said a black person was only 3/5 of a person. The Founders were after all, only people, not deities.
 
1Perry said:
You say it's wrong. This was started with the Founders. Obviously they felt otherwise. They didn't ban slavery but yet continued to practice it.
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I'm new here, but it sounds like you're making the argument that slavery is not inherently wrong. Is that right? I hope not.

My post was meant to refute the previous poster's assertion that prayer is okay because congress has been doing it every morning.

As the court rulings I cited back up, the notion that something is "okay to do because we've always done it that way" is flawed logic.
 
American said:
So the flat-earthers were correct until the round-earthers proved them wrong.
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Not at all. I'm not saying that atheists are correct either. I'm saying that religious people are the ones making the claim. The burden of proof is on them. Until they meet that burden, I'm justified in not believing their claim.

Likewise, if atheists make the claim (as some do, but not all) "God does not exist", they'd have to back that claim up.

Seeing as how god isn't even really clearly defined and not even a falsifiable proposition, I don't know how either side would go about backing up their claim.
 
RStringfield said:
I have the proverbial tshirt. The only value in AA to me is the group therapy, which is countered by the higher power/po wittle me i have a disease bs in your opinion. No, you have a behavior and impulse control problem. By not drinking you are demonstrating that you do have power over it. There is absolutely no reason that you need to walk the line on alcohol. It leads you too bad places, quit. That simple.
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Your comment was still rude. Not all people can "just quit" like you propose. If something helps someone get through a bad place then good, period. What won't help is people sitting in high and mighty judgement of those who need help.
 
American said:
Hundreds of years ago there was no proof or method to prove the earth was spherical, yet now we know it is. Who knows what we'll discover in several hundred more years.
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Yes, there was. It would have been easy to conceive of a conclusive test. Keep traveling and if you find the edge, it is flat, if you end up where you started it ius round. We just did not have the capacity to perform the test.

There is no way to falsify God and never will be because the definition is not falsifiable. How would you test it in a way that would make it falsifiable?
 
Polotick said:
They also said a black person was only 3/5 of a person. The Founders were after all, only people, not deities.
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:roll

They did not say they were 3/5ths of person and slavery would have ended much sooner if they had said they were 0/5ths of a person for purposes of representation.
 
madman said:
I know it's not hurting anything. People can pray to their cat, house, money, garbage disposal, mailman. In my opinion, it's just silly.
It's not that im trying make fun of peoples beliefs, it's just, i can not fathom why people believe in a "god" that does not exist.

Why do christians get so defensive when people oppose their "god"? Are they not secure in their religion?
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They don't believ in a god that doesn't exist. They believe in a god they believe exists.

And, people are just funny that way. If you don't believe me, try telling the black community that MLK was overhyped, or rock fans that the Beatles provided no influence on music, or democrats that Obama is an idiot. Are you going to claim that if they get defensive that they must not be secure in their beliefs?
 
RStringfield said:
Yes, there was. It would have been easy to conceive of a conclusive test. Keep traveling and if you find the edge, it is flat, if you end up where you started it ius round. We just did not have the capacity to perform the test.

There is no way to falsify God and never will be because the definition is not falsifiable. How would you test it in a way that would make it falsifiable?
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Ships disappearing beyond the horizon show the curvature of the Earth.
 
Taylor said:
They don't believ in a god that doesn't exist. They believe in a god they believe exists.

And, people are just funny that way.
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and that's why i think it's funny (or silly) for that matter.
I have a hard time taking religion seriously because logic is tossed out the window.
 
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