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Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds over

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Redress said:
Yes, I am correct. I did look this stuff up, though I knew most of it from acquaintances.
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I haven't posted much here, but, if I'm wrong I'll always say so. I cut my debating teeth as a labor contract negotiator. I will ask for facts to back up assertions and always admit when I'm wrong and fight tooth and nail when I'm not. It was fun, thanks redress!
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Taylor said:
These seem like good examples of ways in which government DOESN'T create wealth. Isn't this just taking money from a bunch of people (taxpayers) and handing it to a smaller number of people (companies that extract raw resources)? To that end, it helps to secure an environment where wealth creation can take place, but doesn't itself create wealth.
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The government investing money into something that creates demand for coal, creates demand for coal.... coal mines pop up. Coal becomes more valuable. Owning coal or having coal on your property suddenly means you suddenly own a wealthy creating asset. If the government demands metal and alloys for war equipment, it creates demand in the market place for metal and alloys.... which means steel is valuable.

It's basic supply and demand economics. If there is no demand for such materials, then there'd be no reason to supply them and those materials would have no value. Supplying materials creates labor demand, coal mines, quarries, etc.

These are not my idea's. This are John Locke's ideas whose his philosophy inspired the constitution of the USA.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Taylor said:
As I said, the majority (i.e. most but not all) of our critical infrastructure is privately owned and operated.
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There is a difference between the government owning infrastructure and the government investing in it. The government doesn't own Microsoft, ATT, IBM, etc. But the government played a role in building the basic infrastructure like utility poles for overhead power lines and various other public utilities, and the government maintains the satellites that make it possible for TW, FOX, HBO, etc to broadcast their programs. The government doesn't own all the hospitals in the country, but the government plays a role in containing outbreaks and keeping statistics though the dept of health.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Misterveritis said:
In the minds of the left isn't that always what it is about? Taking more from the productive to give to public sector union thugs?
I hope the Republicans will stick to their guns. No increase in taxes or in tax rates. It is time for the unproductive to figure out life on their own.
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Yes. Let children teach themselves and everyone put out their own fires. **** 'em all!
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

File this under "And he should know,"

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) — Mark Dayton, the Democratic governor of Minnesota who let his state's government shutdown rather than accept the refusal of Republican lawmakers to raise income taxes on the wealthy, was born into money.

It made him sure of something: "I grew up in that environment. I know people can afford it."
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The Associated Press: Minnesota Dem gov fights GOP's 'no new tax' stance
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Very true, Sir.

"I think the Republican majorities in the House and Senate and I will all suffer politically. I told them at the very beginning of session, I told their leaders, we can either make each other look good or we can make each other look bad. Our political fortunes are kind of inexplicably tied together here."
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Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Misterveritis said:
In the minds of the left isn't that always what it is about? Taking more from the productive to give to public sector union thugs?
I hope the Republicans will stick to their guns. No increase in taxes or in tax rates. It is time for the unproductive to figure out life on their own.
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The Union pension funds are a ticking time bomb in almost every state. In California it's going to wreck the state. The pension funds invested heavily when the economy was good and relied on the proceeds to make ends meet. When the crash came, they like many people were left upside down. Everybody got hurt by the crash, except they think the private sector should make up the difference. I say they either reduce their pension payouts to reflect the money the fund has or let the funds file bankruptcy. The Pensioners can get in line and file a claim for pennies on the dollar.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

MistressNomad said:
Me? Has nothing to do with me.
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When you fail to defend someone's right to their own property it has everything to do with you.

MistressNomad said:
Has to do with the fact that we pay taxes because we are collectively purchasing things we use, like infrastructure. The rich use a lot more of that than the poor.
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Ah the collective, comrade. We "collectively" purchase public sector labor union health care, retirements and inflated costs. Don't we comrade? And the rich must use more than the poor. But how? Do the rich use the roads more. More sewage? Are they not already paying way more than a reasonable person would be willing to pay?

MistressNomad said:
How do you think people get rich?
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Hard work. Good choices. They do things. They make decisions. They cause the right things to happen. Usually they provide a good or a service that makes your life substantially better than it would otherwise be.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

mike2810 said:
. . .over a two-year budget plan to close a $5 billion deficit.
Dayton's first budget proposal included an income tax increase on the wealthiest state residents and an expansion in overall spending. Republican leaders first sought some tax cutbacks in aiming to halt spending increases."

What is alarming to me is the (bold) $5B in the hole the State is in, and while wanting to raise taxes the Gov also wants to raise spending?
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There are plenty of votes that need to be bought for the coming elections. Of course a Democrat governor wants to increase spending well after there is no more money. It is what the democrat-statist does.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

SheWolf said:
So your not ok with the GOP compromising at all... but your still for compromising. :lol:
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Yep. I am fine with a compromise as long as it ends public sector unions, raises now taxes and puts in significant cuts in government spending.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Are you the reincarnation of McCarthy or something? Yes, that's what governments are. Booga booga!

Yup, that's right, rich people exist in a complete vacuum.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

SheWolf said:
Misterveritis wrote: Can you explain the moral premise behind you having a greater claim to the wealth they generate through their efforts than they do?
Because it seems very clear that you are exactly like all of the other greedy, envious people, who cannot wait for someone else to work as a slave to the state.
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This post is just hyperpartisan and emotional bull****.
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Did my post seem emotional? Can you explain the moral premise behind you having a greater claim to the wealth they generate through their efforts than they do?

SheWolf said:
You're simply saying liberals are envious because they want to raise taxes, and they want to raise taxes to pay off the deficit.
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I do not believe that raising tax rates on the productive people has anything to do with the deficit. It has to do with getting even with them.

SheWolf said:
They don't hate the rich. I honestly don't see any evidence that liberals hate the ****ing rich.
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If you prefer we can simply call them the productive. That should remove most liberals from the equation.

SheWolf said:
In fact, a lot of liberals have money. Go to Portland. Go to the Upper East Side of NYC. Obama, the Clinton's, Kerry, the Kennedy's, Hollywood, etc. etc. McCain used to refer to them as elitist, now you're calling them envious.. Get the partisan attacks straightened out.
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Yes. Many of the acted their way to wealth, married into it, inherited it or made political hay. And a few even earned it.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Misterveritis said:
If you prefer we can simply call them the productive. That should remove most liberals from the equation.
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Gee, that's funny, since people with degrees have the lowest unemployment rate and the higher ones level of education the more likely they are to be liberal.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Misterveritis said:
Did my post seem emotional? Can you explain the moral premise behind you having a greater claim to the wealth they generate through their efforts than they do?


I do not believe that raising tax rates on the productive people has anything to do with the deficit. It has to do with getting even with them.


If you prefer we can simply call them the productive. That should remove most liberals from the equation.


Yes. Many of the acted their way to wealth, married into it, inherited it or made political hay. And a few even earned it.
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Earning a lot of money in the form of capital gains is far from being productive... You simply sit on your ass generate revenue because you own/inherited an asset. Assuming the wealthy are more productive than the poor is just simply flawed. Now I am not generalizing the wealthy and saying they are less productive as a whole, I am just pointing out that it is possible to generate a bunch of wealth while not being productive. It's possible to generate about 40,000 a year and work two to three jobs. I have seen it before. I have seen people who make 50,000 owe more in taxes than somebody who made 150,000 because they qualified for more deductions. Hell, just take a look at Kevin Federline... wtf did he do to make 50,000 a month... :lol:
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Misterveritis said:
Ah the collective, comrade. We "collectively" purchase public sector labor union health care, retirements and inflated costs. Don't we comrade? And the rich must use more than the poor. But how? Do the rich use the roads more. More sewage? Are they not already paying way more than a reasonable person would be willing to pay?
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I can't believe I have to answer this question, but yes. The rich do use the roads more. My organization has four employees and use shipping once a year.

Wal-Mart, on the other hand uses the roads a LOT more than our little organization does. And with large numbers of employees and customers, they use sewage systems A LOT more than our organization does.

The rich travel more than the poor do, thus using the infrastructure more. Depending on the city, the poor and middle class are much more likely to use in public transportation, which per person, uses much less of the infrastructure than someone who drives his hummer in from the suburbs every day to work.

Of course, all of that should be obvious.

And no, the rich aren't paying too much. We have the third lowest tax to GDP ratio among OECD nations behind only Mexico and Chile - two other nations with massive income inequality.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Misterveritis said:
Yep. I am fine with a compromise as long as it ends public sector unions, raises now taxes and puts in significant cuts in government spending.
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You're fine with compromise as long as everyone else does the compromising, then.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Sorrow. :(

Vandals trash closed state parks | StarTribune.com

Vandals went wild at abandoned Minnesota state parks over the holiday weekend, wrecking buildings and driving around closed gates as the government shutdown drags toward its second week.

The most serious damage was at Afton State Park, east of the Twin Cities, where 12 people were taken into custody after a burglary and vandalism spree at three buildings before dawn on Monday, Washington County Sheriff Bill Hutton said Tuesday.

Vandals also hit dozens of other state properties in Minnesota, said Jim Konrad, head of enforcement for the Department of Natural Resources (DNR).

"This is just exactly the type of thing we're going to be seeing repeatedly as the shutdown goes forward," said Steve Morse, former lawmaker and DNR deputy commissioner who is now executive director of the Minnesota Environmental Partnership. "It shows once again how difficult it is to extricate the state from our lives, and the problems that are going to come to light once something like this happens."
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Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

What I've learned from Republicans:

1) Raising taxes is bad
2) Reducing taxes is good
3) Reducing taxes increases revenues
4) Reducing taxes improves the economy

So, there's one of two possibilities:
1) The above statements always hold true.
2) The above statements do not always hold true.

If it's 1, we should keep reducing taxes until they're at 1% or less, right?
If it's 2, maybe there's a point at which reducing taxes further simply leaves the government unable to perform basic functions.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Deuce said:
What I've learned from Republicans:

1) Raising taxes is bad
2) Reducing taxes is good
3) Reducing taxes increases revenues
4) Reducing taxes improves the economy

So, there's one of two possibilities:
1) The above statements always hold true.
2) The above statements do not always hold true.

If it's 1, we should keep reducing taxes until they're at 1% or less, right?
If it's 2, maybe there's a point at which reducing taxes further simply leaves the government unable to perform basic functions.
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Depends on what you think are Basic Functions...

j-mac
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Zellers: 'Things went backwards' | StarTribune.com

Nearly a week into Minnesota's government shutdown, budget talks blew up Wednesday, with DFL Gov. Mark Dayton accusing Republicans of untruths and Republicans visibly upset that Dayton still insists on raising taxes.

"No more 'cones of silence.' No more private meetings," Dayton said after the last meeting. "I'm tired of having this stuff come out very differently from how it's transpired."
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I'm glad! Not that it's ongoing, but that he's taken a stand. I'm sorry my state is shut down, but they are there to serve the people, not the very few at the top.

On the steps of the Capitol, state workers gathered in the hot sun to keep pressure on Republicans.

Wednesday's rally took up a familiar theme: taxing the state's wealthiest residents to help solve the deficit. One man held a sign that took his frustration a step further -- he had changed it from "Tax the Rich" to "Eat the Rich."

/snip

"We stand at a point in this state's history of either standing strong for the common good or allowing extreme special interests with a radical social agenda to destroy our middle class," Jim Monroe, executive director of the Minnesota Association of Professional Employees, told the crowd.
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Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Deuce said:
What I've learned from Republicans:

1) Raising taxes is bad
2) Reducing taxes is good
3) Reducing taxes increases revenues
4) Reducing taxes improves the economy

So, there's one of two possibilities:
1) The above statements always hold true.
2) The above statements do not always hold true.

If it's 1, we should keep reducing taxes until they're at 1% or less, right?
If it's 2, maybe there's a point at which reducing taxes further simply leaves the government unable to perform basic functions.
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Um, try looking up Laffer Curve Deuce. Republicans have a mathematical model for why tax rates should remain low. You are either uneducated about that which you claim to have learned or you are disingenuous in your claims.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

SheWolf said:
Name them....
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If you want to be taken seriously you shall have to serious. If not, just continue as you are.
 
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