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Milwaukee schools to lay off 354 teachers

sawyerloggingon said:
Good opportunity to cull out the bad teachers.
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Problem with that is, they won't be replaced, which will make good teachers worse. The best teacher in the world cannot teach a class of 40 students adequately.
 
Why should that district even exist? 4200 student for 1 district? That number should be around 10-11k. These redundancies that are making education budgets bloated.

As I said, the problem is that some school districts have less than 2000 students. In IN, there are school districts that have less than 1k students. This leads to having more superindents and other admin redundancies which eats up most the money spent on education over all.
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I'm not disagreeing with that at all .. I'm presuming you're not talking about shutting down schools .. but just combining these districts .. I think that could be a Substantial saving
 
Misterveritis said:
Granted. Wealth is taken from the wealth producers. The state takes a very large amount. Much of that wealth is then given to public sector union members. Government workers. And they in turn pay some in taxes. But they do not create wealth. They do not create things of value. They consume wealth.

This is not all bad. But too much for too long is. And we have seen public sector unions joined in an unholy alliance with democrats. They make deals with one another to the detriment of the taxpayer. One cannot change the politician. One cannot change the Union leader. So one must take away their power to make mischief by outlawing public sector unions.
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Not all teachers are in unions. Teachers do do something of value. The fact that you would say that is a huge part of the problem.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Good opportunity to cull out the bad teachers.
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Can't happen. MPS is under the old contract. Teachers will be fired based on seniority and seniority alone.
 
Layla_Z said:
Not all teachers are in unions. Teachers do do something of value. The fact that you would say that is a huge part of the problem.
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No, not all teachers are in unions, however, it is a substantial amount of them that are....Let's see what the leader of the NEA says about the kids....

In a speech to fellow union members Dennis Van Roekel said "This isn't about the children..." And goes on in that speech to blast Obama in a selfish screed here:




You want greed in America today? You don't have to look at some perceived fat cat on Wall St. to find it it is in our schools teaching our kids a total revision of this country....Watch here...



Nice eh? Now tell me that cuts aren't in order.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
No, not all teachers are in unions, however, it is a substantial amount of them that are....Let's see what the leader of the NEA says about the kids....

In a speech to fellow union members Dennis Van Roekel said "This isn't about the children..." And goes on in that speech to blast Obama in a selfish screed here:




You want greed in America today? You don't have to look at some perceived fat cat on Wall St. to find it it is in our schools teaching our kids a total revision of this country....Watch here...



Nice eh? Now tell me that cuts aren't in order.

j-mac
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I found nothing wrong with what the president of NEA said. He describe, fairly well, how teachers feel. We are blamed for everything and are the first target of cuts. WE have to follow the policies of those in power even though they have no knowledge of how to teach. I could go on and on about the challenges of teaching, but many professions are challenging, some more, some less than teaching. However, I know of no other profession that is treated with the disdain teachers are. Most people's only experience in a classroom is from when they were students but somehow many people think they know all about education. So yes, teachers are frustrated and angry and rightfully so.

As for your other video, if you look at the lady's sign, it says, "Don't cut vital services." That's not greed, that's concern for the students, which is where most teachers are coming from. For example, in my state, they cut career ladder which was a program that paid teachers to do work beyond their job description. This work included tutoring, sponsoring student clubs, going to seminars on how to be a better teacher, etc. Now, I am working many hours a month for free because I won't stop programs that are important to my students. Do I want a gold star for this? No, but I do want to be treated with respect and paid a fair wage for all the work that I do. I think this is how most teachers feel. So no, cuts are not in order.
 
Layla_Z said:
cuts are not in order
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andrew cuomo, moonbeam brown, rahm emanuel, dan malloy, pat quinn, martin omalley, bing and bobb in detroit, et al, disagree

i wonder why that is
 
Boo Radley said:
the effort was suppose to keep teacher jobs
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fight for something that address that
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a little to ad hoc
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We facing cuts here
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I don't know anyone of siginificance
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there has only been suggestions
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your leaping over the edge
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the dept chair just can't help hisself

You want to spend wisely? So do I
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so does MISTER BOBB!

ie, the MODEL

psst---look to DETROIT

LOL!
 
Boo Radley said:
You invest in what you care about. I am not suggesting we shouldn't be concerned about the budget, but if you care about education, you do something more targetted, more aimed at the problem, and not the things that will effect children and education the most. Again, it is about what do you care about.
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Investing requires you to spend money you have. Money is something they currently do NOT have. That being said, Im sure the state would take all the private education contributions you would care to send them.
 
Layla_Z said:
I found nothing wrong with what the president of NEA said.
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Which part? The part about it not being about the kids? or the video?

WE have to follow the policies of those in power even though they have no knowledge of how to teach.
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But I thought that the Lecturer n chief was to be the Teachers best friend? What's the matter? not workin' out for ya?

I could go on and on about the challenges of teaching, but many professions are challenging, some more, some less than teaching. However, I know of no other profession that is treated with the disdain teachers are.
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Cry me a river...Disdain? Where? Most of the individual teachers I dealt with raising my kids were fairly competent, and my wife and I worked closely with those that were. However there were a few that were not, and those I had a problem with....Maybe the second is closer to how you arrive at some perceived disdain?

Most people's only experience in a classroom is from when they were students but somehow many people think they know all about education.
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This is wrong, and arrogant. How dare you presume. If the job is too hard for you maybe you should pick a different career.

So yes, teachers are frustrated and angry and rightfully so.
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Rightfully so is in the eye of the beholder.

As for your other video, if you look at the lady's sign, it says, "Don't cut vital services." That's not greed, that's concern for the students, which is where most teachers are coming from.
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Please. Mass produced propaganda for effect...the message is greed.

For example, in my state, they cut career ladder which was a program that paid teachers to do work beyond their job description.
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And I bet most teachers said the hell with it then and started mailing it in eh? This is a tough economy, how many people do you think out there are doing over and above just to keep their jobs? And you snivel about being paid for it? Did you get into education for the money?....

his work included tutoring, sponsoring student clubs, going to seminars on how to be a better teacher, etc.
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the bolded is called training...I do that and don't get paid for it what makes you special? As for the rest, you are just showing that your concern is NOT the children.

Now, I am working many hours a month for free because I won't stop programs that are important to my students.
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Good, and whining every step of the way.

Do I want a gold star for this? No
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Sure you do.

but I do want to be treated with respect and paid a fair wage for all the work that I do.
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What do you consider a "fair wage"???

I think this is how most teachers feel.
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You speak for most?

So no, cuts are not in order.
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I think they are.

j-mac
 
The Prof said:
andrew cuomo, moonbeam brown, rahm emanuel, dan malloy, pat quinn, martin omalley, bing and bobb in detroit, et al, disagree

i wonder why that is
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Perhaps they are wrong. Do any of them have degrees in education? When was the last time any of them spent more the a photo op in a classroom? Some districts, especially large ones, may need cuts at the adminstrative level. However, that is rarely where cuts happen. They happen in the way I described, as cuts to teachers or classroom supplies.
 
VanceMack said:
Investing requires you to spend money you have. Money is something they currently do NOT have. That being said, Im sure the state would take all the private education contributions you would care to send them.
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For the record, I donate monthly to an fund to pay for local education.

Now, once again, listen, unless you're going to argue that we cut all lfunds to education period, the issue is not will we cut some places, but where. When teachers are fired, causing an increase in classroom size, I suggest you haven't planned this well enough and have made a mistake somewhere in your reasoning. Also, there are likley other options. The government is not solely limited to education expenditures. Nor is there no option of increasing revenue. Again, is education something we value, enough to make sure wise decisions are made, that all options are considered, that we seek to find away to make sure we give the best to them, or do we value something else more? It's a fair question.
 
Layla_Z said:
Perhaps they are wrong. Do any of them have degrees in education? When was the last time any of them spent more the a photo op in a classroom? Some districts, especially large ones, may need cuts at the adminstrative level. However, that is rarely where cuts happen. They happen in the way I described, as cuts to teachers or classroom supplies.
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Just so you know Layla I agree with the part above that I bolded.

j-mac
 
Layla_Z said:
They happen in the way I described, as cuts to teachers or classroom supplies.
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that's peanuts

the cuts are overwhelmingly in teacher's pensions and health care

from albany to sacto, there's no stopping it

as immutable as math, made simple by scientific notation
 
j-mac said:
Which part? The part about it not being about the kids? or the video?
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I don't know the context of the statement that it's not about kids. Maybe he meant that what the other side was doing wasn't about the kids. I meant the video.



But I thought that the Lecturer n chief was to be the Teachers best friend? What's the matter? not workin' out for ya?
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This doesn't have anything to do with this. No, I'm not happy with how President Obama has handled education, but I'm certain I am less happy with what the republicans have done.
Cry me a river...Disdain? Where? Most of the individual teachers I dealt with raising my kids were fairly competent, and my wife and I worked closely with those that were. However there were a few that were not, and those I had a problem with....Maybe the second is closer to how you arrive at some perceived disdain?
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I'll ignore the pathetic insult. However I must say that it's great you treat your children's teachers with respect. That is not the case with everyone. It is also not how much of society treats teachers. Just read a little and watch a little TV news and you will see.

This is wrong, and arrogant. How dare you presume. If the job is too hard for you maybe you should pick a different career.
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I don't know why it's arrogant to think that I might know more about how to teach than the average person. I have a great deal of education and experience. People in other professions know much more than I do about their job. I don't recall ever saying the job was too hard for me. I enjoy my job a great deal or I wouldn't have done it for nearly 20 years. Oh wait, that was another childish insult, I see.


Please. Mass produced propaganda for effect...the message is greed.
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You posted the video as an example of greed. Don't throw a fit because you didn't read the sign and take in the entire situation. Why did you post it if it was propaganda against your opinion? You don't know this woman or her motivation.


And I bet most teachers said the hell with it then and started mailing it in eh? This is a tough economy, how many people do you think out there are doing over and above just to keep their jobs? And you snivel about being paid for it? Did you get into education for the money?....
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No, I didn't get into education for the money. Does this mean that I don't deserve to be paid for all my work? This was one example of a cut that directly affects students. There are many more. Most teachers go over and above their job all the time for no pay. This program put a dent in that. Some teachers have continued the programs that were funded and some have not. Some cannot afford to.

the bolded is called training...I do that and don't get paid for it what makes you special? As for the rest, you are just showing that your concern is NOT the children.
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This brings us to your big concern. Teachers get things that you don't and you think that's not fair.

Good, and whining every step of the way.

Sure you do.
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Really, why can't you express your opinions with being insulting? I find when people do that they have week arguments.

What do you consider a "fair wage"???
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A wage comparable to other professions that require the same amount of education. I would also like to be paid for all the hours I work.

You speak for most?
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I've taught for 20 years and have a masters degree in education. I hold several leadership positions at my school. I talk to other teachers quite a bit. That is how everyone I talk to feels.

I think they are.
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I think you are wrong. As I stated above I have quite a bit of knowledge and experience in this subject. You'll notice that I gave my opinions without insulting you. If you cannot do the same, I won't encourage your bad behavior with any more posts.
 
Boo Radley said:
For the record, I donate monthly to an fund to pay for local education.

Now, once again, listen, unless you're going to argue that we cut all lfunds to education period, the issue is not will we cut some places, but where. When teachers are fired, causing an increase in classroom size, I suggest you haven't planned this well enough and have made a mistake somewhere in your reasoning. Also, there are likley other options. The government is not solely limited to education expenditures. Nor is there no option of increasing revenue. Again, is education something we value, enough to make sure wise decisions are made, that all options are considered, that we seek to find away to make sure we give the best to them, or do we value something else more? It's a fair question.
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Is education something we value? CERTAINLy and Im willing to bet at the beginning of the next school year there will be teachers in place. What has been determined is that the cost and rewards of the current practices are too expensive with too little gains. They have decided then that they must do things differently. They must restructure in a fiscally responsible manner. Democrat governors are doing the same thing. Everyone is waking up to the fact that we have continued to make promises we cannot support and things must be done differently.

Personally...now...just me personally....I am a HUGE fan of reviewing teachers performance and rewarding effective teachers, firing the hell out of bad and ineffective teachers, and paying all teachers a better salary and will GLADLY pay more in local taxes to do so.
 
VanceMack said:
Is education something we value? CERTAINLy and Im willing to bet at the beginning of the next school year there will be teachers in place. What has been determined is that the cost and rewards of the current practices are too expensive with too little gains. They have decided then that they must do things differently. They must restructure in a fiscally responsible manner. Democrat governors are doing the same thing. Everyone is waking up to the fact that we have continued to make promises we cannot support and things must be done differently.

Personally...now...just me personally....I am a HUGE fan of reviewing teachers performance and rewarding effective teachers, firing the hell out of bad and ineffective teachers, and paying all teachers a better salary and will GLADLY pay more in local taxes to do so.
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Who has decided and on what basis? And what is a valid performance measure? If I teach in a wealthy school with concerned parents, students with full stomachs and good homes, is my job expectation the same as a teacher who teaches in a poor neighborhood, with drugs, and violence, and poor parents, hunger issues, safety issues? How do you measure both equally?

Doing things differently sounds good, and in reality, I don't disagree with that overall. The rub is in the details. Do what differently? Change what? And who decides what? Should we consult people who know something about it, or as education is worthless, should we seek people who haven't been educated on the matter?
 
Layla_Z said:
I don't know the context of the statement that it's not about kids. Maybe he meant that what the other side was doing wasn't about the kids. I meant the video.





This doesn't have anything to do with this. No, I'm not happy with how President Obama has handled education, but I'm certain I am less happy with what the republicans have done.


I'll ignore the pathetic insult. However I must say that it's great you treat your children's teachers with respect. That is not the case with everyone. It is also not how much of society treats teachers. Just read a little and watch a little TV news and you will see.


I don't know why it's arrogant to think that I might know more about how to teach than the average person. I have a great deal of education and experience. People in other professions know much more than I do about their job. I don't recall ever saying the job was too hard for me. I enjoy my job a great deal or I wouldn't have done it for nearly 20 years. Oh wait, that was another childish insult, I see.




You posted the video as an example of greed. Don't throw a fit because you didn't read the sign and take in the entire situation. Why did you post it if it was propaganda against your opinion? You don't know this woman or her motivation.




No, I didn't get into education for the money. Does this mean that I don't deserve to be paid for all my work? This was one example of a cut that directly affects students. There are many more. Most teachers go over and above their job all the time for no pay. This program put a dent in that. Some teachers have continued the programs that were funded and some have not. Some cannot afford to.



This brings us to your big concern. Teachers get things that you don't and you think that's not fair.



Really, why can't you express your opinions with being insulting? I find when people do that they have week arguments.



A wage comparable to other professions that require the same amount of education. I would also like to be paid for all the hours I work.


I've taught for 20 years and have a masters degree in education. I hold several leadership positions at my school. I talk to other teachers quite a bit. That is how everyone I talk to feels.


I think you are wrong. As I stated above I have quite a bit of knowledge and experience in this subject. You'll notice that I gave my opinions without insulting you. If you cannot do the same, I won't encourage your bad behavior with any more posts.
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Your right, and I apologize for the back handed insults. This really shouldn't be about teachers, but between the unions, and administrators that will hold you out there as tools for their political ends, it is hard sometimes to get the arguments absolutely right.

Now, listen, maybe if you could show me a comparison of similar careers that had similar education levels at the starting levels that are in disparity with that of teacher salaries today, then you'd have a point, but salaries have come a long way in the past 20 years...

I am only guessing here, and you don't have to respond with your actual numbers, but I am guessing that depending on the part of the country, and with your experience and education, that you are in oh, say the upper 5 digits in salary? That is pretty good when a national median salary for this country is some where around $35K....

So I ask again, how much should the average teacher make?

j-mac
 
Boo Radley said:
Who has decided and on what basis? And what is a valid performance measure? If I teach in a wealthy school with concerned parents, students with full stomachs and good homes, is my job expectation the same as a teacher who teaches in a poor neighborhood, with drugs, and violence, and poor parents, hunger issues, safety issues? How do you measure both equally?

Doing things differently sounds good, and in reality, I don't disagree with that overall. The rub is in the details. Do what differently? Change what? And who decides what? Should we consult people who know something about it, or as education is worthless, should we seek people who haven't been educated on the matter?
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The people elected by the people, as a result of the previous people.
 
This is regardless of profession j:

Salary.com's calculations for 2003 placed bachelor's degree holders at an average salary of $43,000, and master's degree holders at $53,000 (see earnings chart below).

Salary | Learning | A Higher Degree the Key to Higher Pay?

Those with a master's teaching here make about 42-45K a year. So someone is making more. ;)
 
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