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Milwaukee schools to lay off 354 teachers

Boo Radley said:
I could support something like that. Any idea why it isn't proposed?
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Because administrators are the ones with power and it easier to whip the weak. That and everyone believes that pure local control is something to be strived for. However, what I just said is purposed by those who want actual education reform. Bob Bennte, superintendent of public school in Indy, has purposed such a measure (hes republican)
 
xpiher said:
Because administrators are the ones with power and it easier to whip the weak. That and everyone believes that pure local control is something to be strived for. However, what I just said is purposed by those who want actual education reform. Bob Bennte, superintendent of public school in Indy, has purposed such a measure (hes republican)
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Good for him. Like I said, I could support that.
 
Boo Radley said:
So, instead of bowing before the alter of mindless sterotypes, how about you think just a little more, and ask that you leaders do more than just cut, but instead have a plan, a real plan, one that does more good than harm. Ask that they invest proeprly, in what we value, as that is what our investments speak to, what we truely value.
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California spends more than 50% of the entire budget on education every year, yet we rank 47th in the states in education level. When is enough....enough?
 
Prof. Peabody said:
California spends more than 50% of the entire budget on education every year, yet we rank 47th in the states in education level. When is enough....enough?
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Again, I have no issue with a plan to spend more wisely. I have an issue with just cutting funds. Just cutting is no better than just spending.
 
Prof. Peabody said:
California spends more than 50% of the entire budget on education every year, yet we rank 47th in the states in education level. When is enough....enough?
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When its actually spent on education.
 
Boo Radley said:
No, they really are not, at least not effectively. What we see here is just a cut, costing jobs, and not addressing the issues. And actually, responsible people don't just cut spending. They often attack revenue as well. I have at times took a second job to add revenue, and I doubt I'm the only one. Attacking one side of the issue is not often as effective as attacking both.

Well, I would deny that only liberals spend. Frankly, both parties spend. And I would consider tax and spend much preferable to tax cut and spend. ;)

And I wouldn add, if I had to choose between which spending I prefer, I prefer the money spent here, on our teachers, our students, our health care than building up nations in Afghanistan and Iraq. Values. What do you value?
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Well I'm glad that you think in todays economy you could go out and get a 2nd job … with over 14 million unemployed and looking for work I'm sure there are plenty out there. Because it's apparent you just couldn't cut your spending.

Finally something we can agree on .. in the recent past Republicans have spent as wildly as the Democrats. We have seen already how well reckless spending has worked out in both state and federal levels. Hopefully the newly elected Republicans will continue onward with their cuts as they were elected to do. If not you (IMO) will see many of those lose their re-election bids.

I haven't heard of any other firings from other districs have you ?? It seems Kauakauna schools went from a 400K deficit to a 1.5 million dollar surplus and didn't fire one teacher. It would seem that the Milwaukee Public Schools are more interested in getting back at Walker then the children they are suppose to care about or even their own teachers. If they had put “VALUE” ahead of politics they might have went to Kauakauna and see what they were doing.

What do I value besides getting value for money that I spend ?? I value things like a strong armed services to protect our country, I value a government that protects my rights and freedoms as they are suppose to by this silly thing called the Constitution, I value “legal” immigration to our country. I value people being self reliant and responsible for their and their families well being. I value taking care of our elderly and our disabled and those people that “CANNOT” support themselves, being lazy, and sitting on your fat ass does “NOT” qualify. I value a tax system that is fair to everyone and does not allow 47% of the working population to pay nothing in income tax. I value an educational system that puts students ahead of everything else. Rather then uses them for political motives. That is just a short list of some of the things I “value.” I however, unlike you, don't believe that I can get those things just by continually tossing money at them. We have over spent on each of these things .. because we have not gotten a true value for the money we are spending on them. Both parties have spent recklessly, Stop and cut the reckless spending and get some value for what we spend …. if that isn't enough … then come back and talk increasing taxes … .But don't try and convince me that after 30 or 40 years or this reckless spending, you want even more money to spend and are suddenly going to do a better job of it. Prove you can spend wisely, and get some value for the money you spend before asking for more.
 
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The Barbarian said:
Well I'm glad that you think in todays economy you could go out and get a 2nd job … with over 14 million unemployed and looking for work I'm sure there are plenty out there. Because it's apparent you just couldn't cut your spending.
Finally something we can agree on .. in the recent past Republicans have spent as wildly as the Democrats. We have seen already how well reckless spending has worked out in both state and federal levels. Hopefully the newly elected Republicans will continue onward with their cuts as they were elected to do. If not you (IMO) will see many of those lose their re-election bids.
I haven't heard of any other firings from other districs have you ?? It seems Kauakauna schools went from a 400K deficit to a 1.5 million dollar surplus and didn't fire one teacher. Maybe the Milwaukee Public Schools are more interested in getting back at Walker then the children they are suppose to care about or even their own teachers. If they had put “VALUE” ahead of politics they might have went to Kauakauna and see what they were doing.
What do I value besides getting value for money that I spend ?? I value things like a strong armed services to protect our country, I value a government that protects my rights and freedoms as they are suppose to by this silly thing called the Constitution, I value “legal” immigration to our country. I value people being self reliant and responsible for their and their families well being. I value taking care of our elderly and our disabled and those people that “CANNOT” support themselves, being lazy, and sitting on your fat ass does “NOT” qualify. I value a tax system that is fair to everyone and does not allow 47% of the working population to pay nothing in income tax. I value an educational system that puts students ahead of everything else. Rather then uses them for political motives. That is just a short list of some of the things I “value.” I however, unlike you, don't believe that I can get those things just by continually tossing money at them. We have over spent on each of these things .. because we have not gotten a true value for the money we are spending on them. Both parties have spent recklessly, Stop and cut the reckless spending and get some value for what we spend …. if that isn't enough … then come back and talk increasing taxes … .But don't try and convince me that after 30 or 40 years or this reckless spending, you want even more money to spend and are suddenly going to do a better job of it. Prove you can spend wisely, and get some value for the money you spend before asking for more.
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Well, I could. I have connections, but way to skip the point. ;)

republicans, like democrats, are policiticans. They will try to make you think they are doing something when they really aren't. how many times have the republcans won both the congress and presidency and accomplish nothing conservatives really want, outside of tax cuts (the answer to all the world's ills)? As evidenced by the democrats controling both congress and the presidency for a short time under Obama, they did do much better. It isn't about party, and this new group is not much different than the old group.

No where have I said we should continuely just throw money at education. I have said we should spend it more wisely, and if you call for that, I can agree. Where we differ, as best I can tell, is that I don't see just cutitng spending with no plan as being better than spending it with no proper plan. If we are top heavy, cut only at the top. Restructure. Just cutitng funds doesn't accomplish anything you say youn want accomplished.

Now, as for tax increases, no serious person believes you can tackle our budget issues without some painful cuts. however, I also beleive no serious person believes we can address these budget issues without addressing revenue, which means taxes. Nothing says we can't do both at the same time. If you want wise spending, you have to stop calling for unwise actions, like cutting just to be cutting. Wisdom requires the flexibility to do what is needed to do, and the ability to address these issues without being beholden to more radical elements and / or lobbyist.

One more thing, I don't know who you speak of about sitting on their fat assess, while I'm sure someone somewhere is getting over on the system, and that this includes both the wealthy and the poor, our problem is not people sitting on their fat asses. Our larger problem is that we simply don't tackle problems outside of a political framework that divides us in to side, us and them, whoever us and them are. We would be better served to problem solve together.
 
Boo Radley said:
Again, I have no issue with a plan to spend more wisely. I have an issue with just cutting funds. Just cutting is no better than just spending.
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It works on the same premise as hiking gas prices to force people to be more efficient with fossil fuels.
 
Boo Radley said:
Well, I could. I have connections, but way to skip the point. ;)

republicans, like democrats, are policiticans. They will try to make you think they are doing something when they really aren't. how many times have the republcans won both the congress and presidency and accomplish nothing conservatives really want, outside of tax cuts (the answer to all the world's ills)? As evidenced by the democrats controling both congress and the presidency for a short time under Obama, they did do much better. It isn't about party, and this new group is not much different than the old group.

No where have I said we should continuely just throw money at education. I have said we should spend it more wisely, and if you call for that, I can agree. Where we differ, as best I can tell, is that I don't see just cutitng spending with no plan as being better than spending it with no proper plan. If we are top heavy, cut only at the top. Restructure. Just cutitng funds doesn't accomplish anything you say youn want accomplished.

Now, as for tax increases, no serious person believes you can tackle our budget issues without some painful cuts. however, I also beleive no serious person believes we can address these budget issues without addressing revenue, which means taxes. Nothing says we can't do both at the same time. If you want wise spending, you have to stop calling for unwise actions, like cutting just to be cutting. Wisdom requires the flexibility to do what is needed to do, and the ability to address these issues without being beholden to more radical elements and / or lobbyist.

One more thing, I don't know who you speak of about sitting on their fat assess, while I'm sure someone somewhere is getting over on the system, and that this includes both the wealthy and the poor, our problem is not people sitting on their fat asses. Our larger problem is that we simply don't tackle problems outside of a political framework that divides us in to side, us and them, whoever us and them are. We would be better served to problem solve together.
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Well good for you. Tell that to the 14 million that are unemployed .. I'm sure they are spending more then when they were working, and considering it the wise thing to do.

I've said this over and over again . .Clinton was the best we had … over his 8 years we raised taxes (one of the biggest tax hikes in history) we fought no wars, cut defense spending to bare bones, we had no catastrophes such as Katina .. and we only went in debt another 1.5 trillion it's pretty bad when you say that is the best we had. But it goes to show our government will outspend what it takes in no matter what .

Our government has shown that no amount of money given them is enough … so no .. I'm not convinced that giving them more is the answer to anything .. Show me you can make the cuts .. show me you can make our programs more efficient, only then will I even consider giving you more … until that can be shown .. make due with what you are getting.

We do agree on one thing .. to get out of this mess .. we will have to raise taxes and cut spending .. that I will agree with .. it's just that I want to see some progress … real progress in the cutting .. not just the paper shuffling we have seen in the past. when I see some progress that the very government that has put us in this debt is taking steps to get us out of it ... then and only then would I find it proper to ask the citizens of this country to help out by paying more .. and that help should come from all people not just the rich. even if it's just $100 dolllars each from those 47% that now pay nothing in federal income tax. Our country belong to everyone .. and everyone needs to help.

Those tax hikes can be much like the tax cuts .. that will expire after we get the debt paid down to a manageable amount.

I was talking of those on welfare .. that have been on it all their lives .. those that are phyically capable of working that choose to remain wards of the state .. that program alone .. (if I remember this figure right) costs us about 400 billion dollars a year .. and doesn't do enough to help those that really need it because so much is given to those that make it a life time program for themselves .
 
The one thing I'd like to see here is whom exactly makes the actual decision on cuts in any given school system.

I mean not the macro cut, that comes out of the local government. But the decision on these teachers. This is not Walker, or anyone in individual cases to cut these teachers. More like Board decisions that are largely made up of top level school administrators (demo's), and possibly union hacks axing teachers instead of themselves to make political hay.

These self interested buffoons make fools of you libs that so easily fall for their ploys.

j-mac
 
Marshabar said:
Both the love of power and the love of money are certainly the deciding factors when it comes to the destruction of the public school system. It has become just another fountain of wealth to be exploited by the unscrupulous while the good ones within the system and the students are help hostage to their ambition and greed.

I know plenty of good, conservative teachers. If they speak their opinions it's as if the jaws of hell open up and hate spews forth until they are intimidated back into silence or driven away.

I am also hearing of more and more students who are intimidated into silence on their conservative views and who are treated and graded unfairly by teachers for those views. Their parents are likewise intimidated if they have no other options for education.

Because, it is true, the love of money IS the root of all evil.

It shows in the United States school system.
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I've taught nearly 20 years, and I've never seen this happen.
 
When the GOP was swept to major victories in November of 2010, we started to hear about their plans. I was about to take a job with the State Legislature and was in on lots of the inside machinations going on. Very early on, the idea took hold that the Republicans wanted all state employees to take a 10 to 20% cut in pay and to increase the amount they paid into health insurance. But - and this is key - they did NOT want any layoffs or cutbacks in service because that would have a negative impact upon the citizens. In a nutshell, the plan was to get the same work for less.

For the most part, that is exactly what has happened. The forces of conservatism are placing public employees between a rock and a hard place forcing them to chose between lower wages and ending the jobs of some of their fellow workers and union members.

Machiavelli would be proud.
 
j-mac said:
The one thing I'd like to see here is whom exactly makes the actual decision on cuts in any given school system.

I mean not the macro cut, that comes out of the local government. But the decision on these teachers. This is not Walker, or anyone in individual cases to cut these teachers. More like Board decisions that are largely made up of top level school administrators (demo's), and possibly union hacks axing teachers instead of themselves to make political hay.

These self interested buffoons make fools of you libs that so easily fall for their ploys.

j-mac
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From my experience, the superintendent makes suggestions to the school board who makes the final decision. A point that has always bugged me is that the school board, with no training in education, makes the final decisions in budget and in the hiring and firing of teachers. I've seen boards fire teachers with great evaluations from the principal and I've seen the opposite happen.
 
Layla_Z said:
From my experience, the superintendent makes suggestions to the school board who makes the final decision. A point that has always bugged me is that the school board, with no training in education, makes the final decisions in budget and in the hiring and firing of teachers. I've seen boards fire teachers with great evaluations from the principal and I've seen the opposite happen.
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Well, exactly my point....When these boards convene to make their cuts, How much would you like to bet that a majority of them in cases like these are liberal bureaucrats that instead of really taking into account the drivers of education like overly redundant administration like themselves they instantly knee jerk to teachers to cause the uproar in the first place.

j-mac
 
The Barbarian said:
Well good for you. Tell that to the 14 million that are unemployed .. I'm sure they are spending more then when they were working, and considering it the wise thing to do.

I've said this over and over again . .Clinton was the best we had … over his 8 years we raised taxes (one of the biggest tax hikes in history) we fought no wars, cut defense spending to bare bones, we had no catastrophes such as Katina .. and we only went in debt another 1.5 trillion it's pretty bad when you say that is the best we had. But it goes to show our government will outspend what it takes in no matter what .

Our government has shown that no amount of money given them is enough … so no .. I'm not convinced that giving them more is the answer to anything .. Show me you can make the cuts .. show me you can make our programs more efficient, only then will I even consider giving you more … until that can be shown .. make due with what you are getting.

We do agree on one thing .. to get out of this mess .. we will have to raise taxes and cut spending .. that I will agree with .. it's just that I want to see some progress … real progress in the cutting .. not just the paper shuffling we have seen in the past. when I see some progress that the very government that has put us in this debt is taking steps to get us out of it ... then and only then would I find it proper to ask the citizens of this country to help out by paying more .. and that help should come from all people not just the rich. even if it's just $100 dolllars each from those 47% that now pay nothing in federal income tax. Our country belong to everyone .. and everyone needs to help.

Those tax hikes can be much like the tax cuts .. that will expire after we get the debt paid down to a manageable amount.

I was talking of those on welfare .. that have been on it all their lives .. those that are phyically capable of working that choose to remain wards of the state .. that program alone .. (if I remember this figure right) costs us about 400 billion dollars a year .. and doesn't do enough to help those that really need it because so much is given to those that make it a life time program for themselves .
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You realize, laying off more teachers adds to the unemployed? Other than trying to skip the point being made, your argument on this front is illogical. Let's take just a moment to remember the point. We attack it on both ends, reducing spending and increasing revenue.

And you agree that we will have to raise taxes, and by j's like, he must as well. That's good to here.

Now, would you also agree that cuts should be targetted? Aimed at where the problem is, and not just mindlessly cut with no plan?

As for welfare, are you speaking of corporate welfare? Is that what you see when you use the word, or are you more sterotypical and see poor folk, single moms, and such? If you're the latter, you're looking at small patatoes and are skipping the problems again to focus on something that will have no large or siginificant effect. Cutting will only be delt with effectively by addressing the big three. Nothing else will make a dent, and is a waste of energy to whine about. However, politicians keep the populace from the big three in part by demonizing those who have no lobbying group. It works too.
 
j-mac said:
The one thing I'd like to see here is whom exactly makes the actual decision on cuts in any given school system.

I mean not the macro cut, that comes out of the local government. But the decision on these teachers. This is not Walker, or anyone in individual cases to cut these teachers. More like Board decisions that are largely made up of top level school administrators (demo's), and possibly union hacks axing teachers instead of themselves to make political hay.

These self interested buffoons make fools of you libs that so easily fall for their ploys.

j-mac
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Varies, but our leaders can target and make a plan. One is mentioned earlier in the thread, where a republican leader made just such a proposal.
 
Boo Radley said:
Varies, but our leaders can target and make a plan. One is mentioned earlier in the thread, where a republican leader made just such a proposal.
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Well, then you must be all happy then when the union, and the corrupt shills they install use you as pawn's in their cynical game of politics...Good thing its only your job, but hey, they'll be happy to give you more talking points, and boogey men to attack.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Well, then you must be all happy then when the union, and the corrupt shills they install use you as pawn's in their cynical game of politics...Good thing its only your job, but hey, they'll be happy to give you more talking points, and boogey men to attack.

j-mac
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J, I don't hate the working man. There are all kinds of lobbyist, it isn't only the working person's that is evil. Please, consider that working people need as much of a voice as the wealthy.

And J, you neither understand nor speak for any union. You might make a fair corporate shill, as you're more their pawn than I am the unions. However, this distraction of yours has nothing to do with any point made. Can you address a point?
 
Boo Radley said:
J, I don't hate the working man. There are all kinds of lobbyist, it isn't only the working person's that is evil. Please, consider that working people need as much of a voice as the wealthy.

And J, you neither understand nor speak for any union. You might make a fair corporate shill, as you're more their pawn than I am the unions. However, this distraction of yours has nothing to do with any point made. Can you address a point?
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Ha! Me a corporate shill....I should tell my mom.....Look pal I am a middle class Commercial Truck driver. I am probably more the preverbal "working man" than any union hack. Don't you forget it.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Well, exactly my point....When these boards convene to make their cuts, How much would you like to bet that a majority of them in cases like these are liberal bureaucrats that instead of really taking into account the drivers of education like overly redundant administration like themselves they instantly knee jerk to teachers to cause the uproar in the first place.

j-mac
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What you aren't understanding is that they aren't allowed to cut their own position because they are established by local government. The over lap isn't created by the teachers union or the administration themselves, it created by localities demanding completely control over their area, even if that area only severs 200 students.
 
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Boo Radley said:
You realize, laying off more teachers adds to the unemployed? Other than trying to skip the point being made, your argument on this front is illogical. Let's take just a moment to remember the point. We attack it on both ends, reducing spending and increasing revenue.

And you agree that we will have to raise taxes, and by j's like, he must as well. That's good to here.

Now, would you also agree that cuts should be targetted? Aimed at where the problem is, and not just mindlessly cut with no plan?

As for welfare, are you speaking of corporate welfare? Is that what you see when you use the word, or are you more sterotypical and see poor folk, single moms, and such? If you're the latter, you're looking at small patatoes and are skipping the problems again to focus on something that will have no large or siginificant effect. Cutting will only be delt with effectively by addressing the big three. Nothing else will make a dent, and is a waste of energy to whine about. However, politicians keep the populace from the big three in part by demonizing those who have no lobbying group. It works too.
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I'm sorry boo … but it wasn't walker that laid of the teachers, He made cuts to the budget, and handed off the responsibility to the school system on how to handle those cuts …. see you are like a true lib looking to find fault with Walker an nothing else. I don't see you ire at those that “actually” laid the teachers off .. . and you keep ignoring that well Milwaukee Public Schools laid off teachers .. other districts did not …. but hey why let facts get in the way of trashing a republican right ?

Did you mis-understand my stance on taxes ?? Remember I said I would be for tax increases for all wage class earners … “BUT” only after there have been verified cuts in spending. I'm not about to give the vary same government that has put us 15 trillion dollars in debt … more money to raise the debt more … that concept is just plain stupid … in the last 30 years they have only shown that they can spend more then they are given. With that kinda a track record only a fool would be willing to give them more.

Well I can agree cuts should be targeted .. we will never agree on cuts .. because you are a liberal . . and feel the rich .. and the corporation are the only ones at fault .. . and they should be punished by having their income taken from them to support the so called needs of the middle class, while as a conservative .. I feel the proper way to handle the poor and the middle class is to give them the opportunity of better paying jobs .. to raise them up .. so more people can shoulder the responsibility of paying for the government. Give them the opportunity, which is all our constitution promises to do, and what they do with that opportunity is up to them.

I'm no more stereotypical then you are boo … all you see is taking from others that have done better then average …

Now you keep saying there should be a plan for cuts .. . well there should be a plan for increasing taxes too .. and I certainly haven't seen any such plan from liberal like yourself .. other then tax the rich and corporate America … very stereotypical wouldn't you say ?
 
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