Key republican bolts from debt ceiling talks

MrVicchio said:

GE got the hook up cause the company is run by folks in bed with Obama...

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LIES! ALL LIES!

They gave money to the GOP in 2008, not Obama...
<sarcasm>

Redress said:

Do you have anything from an economist who is not a supply side republican?

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I thought house.gov would work for you.

How about a picture?







If that doesn't help, nothing will.

Those pictures are lame and have been discounted repeatedly by pretty much every one with an education. Does the phrase "isolating a variable" mean anything to you? How about the phrase "correlation does not mean causation"? The economy almost always grows(it is rare enough that if it doesn't for 6 months, it is called a recession), and if the economy grows, tax revenue grows. So all your charts do is show the economy grows, and no one argued otherwise.

Whovian said:

LIES! ALL LIES!

They gave money to the GOP in 2008, not Obama...
<sarcasm>

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That was debunked. I believe someone personally debunked it to Mr.Vicchio yet he continues to make that point. They were low-mid level GE employees who donated to Obama's campaign, along with millions of other Americans who donated to Obama's campaign which raked in unprecedented amounts of donations.

Gargantuan said:

That was debunked. I believe someone personally debunked it to Mr.Vicchio yet he continues to make that point. They were low-mid level GE employees who donated to Obama's campaign, along with millions of other Americans who donated to Obama's campaign which raked in unprecedented amounts of donations.

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so you admit GE employees gave to Obama (as is their right). And that massive support from GE employees had 'nothing' to do with any tax breaks and such that GE got since the election, right?

GE's CEO was not named an economic advisor to Obama, right?

F.D.I.C. to Back $139 Billion in GE Capital Debt - NYTimes.com

General Electric said Wednesday that the federal government had agreed to insure as much as $139 billion in debt for its lending subsidiary, GE Capital.

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move along... nothing to see here folks.

Redress said:

Only over long periods of time(note: capital gains taxes exempted from this, due to first year increases in cashing in capital gains type holdings, and then it gets complicated). Eventually, tax cuts usually pay for themselves, but it is my understanding you are looking at 25 + year time frames.

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Hence, Republicans really don't care about running up huge deficits...not really. They've "kicked the can down the road" for over 30 years now and have done little to nothing to pay it down. Only now when our national economy is in trouble AND a Democrat is in the White House do they seem to care about this issue at all. What's even more pathetic about Cantor and Kyle walking out of negotiations is that according to this report from CNN, both sides have agreed to TRILLIONS in spending cuts which was what Republicans initially insisted on at the onset of negotiations for raising the debt ceiling.

The bipartisan group, led by Vice President Biden, has been meeting for weeks behind closed doors to discuss various proposals to cut spending, from both discretionary programs and entitlement programs, such as Medicare. They have released very few details about areas of agreement, but Cantor said the group made significant progress agreeing to trillions in spending cuts, and noted “we have established a blueprint that could institute the fiscal reforms needed to start getting our fiscal house in order.”

...

Democrats involved in the negotiations have repeatedly said increasing tax revenues, from proposals such as ending subsidies for big oil companies, or companies producing ethanol, should be considered as part of the deal. Van Hollen said there was no justification for opposing those items “if you are serious about reducing the deficit.”

But the Democratic source—who would not speak on the record about the closed talks–said the Republicans in the negotiations have refused to accept any proposals that end any subsidies. "They're not willing to accept a dime of tax increases, we call it closing tax loopholes"

A Republican leadership, who also asked not to be identified, said it was the Democrats holding up progress because they refused to accept major changes to entitlement programs.

Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell went to the Senate floor and echoed Cantor’s message.

"Either someone on the other side has forgotten that there is strong bipartisan, bipartisan, opposition in Congress to raising taxes or someone is acting in bad faith. We’ve known for some time that tax hikes would be a poison pill to any deficit reduction proposal,” McConnell said.

As Republicans were stressing their position to keep taxes off the table, the Democratic source maintained the GOP was continuing to push for major cuts to programs that they knew Democrats would oppose.

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Now, let's get this straight...

Since the 2011 and 2012 budget negotions, Democrats have agreed to over $105 billion dollars in spending cuts. During the debt ceiling negotions, Democrats have agreed to even more SIGNIFICANT spending cuts - in excess of over $1 TRILLIONS over and above the billions that have already been cut and are willing to cut even more. Talk about moving the goal posts! :shock:

I don't know how much further one party can reach across the aisle, ladies and gentlemen. Democrats have done their part; it's beyond time Republicans start doing theirs.

Sidenote: Notice, ladies and gentlemen, that in initial debt ceiling negotiations according to the FoxNews article Republican negotiators never mentioned their resistance to tax increases nor their refusal to eliminate tax subsidies. But now all of a sudden not only are we starting to hear about pledges on the Right to vote against raising taxes of any kind, Cantor and Co. have now thrown the tax issue into the mix. It wasn't an issue before, but suddenly it is. Let me make it clear here, folks: If you're going to claim that it's okay to eliminate tax subsidies on Ethenal because such an industry has proven its ability to be "profitable on its own," you'd better damned well be prepared to see tax subsidies for big oil on the table and expect them to go "bye-bye" as well since they've proven they're ability to make huge profits even during the worst economic crisis since the Depression.

Absolutely. Democrats are going out on a major limb here, even though they control TWO parts of the government, whereas the GOP only has ONE. They should be the ones jumping over hoops, but they won't even agree to one thing.

This is just such bull****.

Bigfoot 88 said:

Okay, then cut subsidies and loopholes.

Don't raise taxes.

I don't know why anyone would want to raise taxes especially considering we are hovering on a double dip recession. These FDR policies are going to keep us in a muck for a while.

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Why would one want to raise taxes? Cause there's no such thing as a free lunch. Eventually we have to pay for what we're spending. Time to cowboy up and pay the tab.

Interesting Tweet:

BobBrinker: RT @rationalwalk: When did eliminating insane tax subsidies become "tax increases" that Republicans are forbidden (by Grover Norquist) to modify in any way?

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Gargantuan said:

Debt ceiling: Key Republican bolts debt ceiling talks - Jun. 23, 2011



I'm sorry but this is absolutely ridiculous. Democrats control the senate and the White House. That's 2/3. You guys control 1. We already have agreed to cutting medicare and other entitlements,

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they have? where?

and you won't even give us tax increases in the form of cutting loopholes and subsidies? Is the GOP kidding?

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1. raising tax rates is unlikely to produce more revenue
2. it will, however, limit growth, reduce jobs, and is therefore likely to decrease revenue.

We are all for tax code simplification - getting rid of loopholes, subsidies, corporate welfare, credits, and so forth. But not by increasing effective tax rates.

That's right cpwill. That's not the discussion. No one is attempting to raise rates. They are refusing to do exactly what you are FOR.

And many times. Someone posted all of it in this thread. Obama has publicly admitted.

Yeah I like the BS characterization. How about we try this one : Tax Dispute Stalls Debt Talks - WSJ.com

The group, led by Vice President Joseph Biden, canceled its scheduled meeting Thursday. The suspension of the group's work could mark the beginning of the final stage of budget negotiations, which most participants had long assumed would be concluded by the president, the speaker and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D., Nev.)

"We've reached the point where the dynamic needs to change," Mr. Cantor said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal. "It is up to the president to come in and talk to the speaker. We've reached the end of this phase."

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AND

"As all of us at the table said at the outset, the goal of these talks was to report our findings back to our respective leaders,'' Mr. Biden said. "The next phase is in the hands of those leaders, who need to determine the scope of an agreement that can tackle the problem and attract bipartisan support. For now the talks are in abeyance as we await that guidance."

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Walking away from the talks is a bit of an exaggeration, moving onto the next phase would be more accurate...melodrama and hyberbole aside.

Gargantuan said:

Yes they do. The discussion is regarding revenue increases. Subsidies and loopholes lower revenue. Cutting them will raise revenue.

Try again.

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How will all this reduce the debt, that's what I'm concerned with?

Ikari said:

Why would one want to raise taxes? Cause there's no such thing as a free lunch. Eventually we have to pay for what we're spending. Time to cowboy up and pay the tab.

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Time to spend less.

a HALF TRILLION DOLLARS of waste, most of it in the last 2 years

march 1:

All told, the GAO targeted as much as $510 billion on 583 potentially duplicative, wasteful programs overseen by roughly 182 government agencies and offices, stretching across the federal government, from the Department of Defense to Transportation to Health & Human Services. The GAO found that some of the duplication dates back to 2002, but most came in fiscal years 2009 to 2010 and going forward.

The GAO found as much as $200 billion in duplicative spending going out the door over the next decade on 2,100 data centers alone. Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) requested the report, and has said “it makes us all look like jackasses.”

The GAO’s list dovetails with work already done on this waste by the Congressional Budget Office (see below). Last year, FOX Business found $1.5 trillion in fat marbled through government.

For instance, the U.S. has 15 different agencies overseeing food-safety laws, 25 separate programs on health information systems, and 80 programs for economic development. The GAO says there are potentially 35 duplicative programs on infrastructure. And it questions the $58 billion spent annually on 100 surface transportation projects.

Also, Congress has routinely failed to at minimum probe and then stop redundant programs. The GAO says just five of 47 job training and employment programs had been evaluated for efficiencies. “Little is known about the effectiveness of most programs,” the GAO said in its report. The government also spent $62.5 billion on 18 food assistance programs, but “little is known about the effectiveness of [11 of the 18 programs] because they have not been well studied,” the GAO said.

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GAO Finds Massive Waste, Duplication - FoxBusiness.com

incidentally, according to treasury, cap and trade which fortunately is dead would have cost producers and consumers "$200 billion a year or $1,800 per american household"

no more money for managers so morose

they're losing it, #'s 1 and 3 in house leadership

Pelosi: Debt Largely Accrued by George W Bush

Clyburn: Obama Doesn't Have "Time" For Debt Negotiations | RealClearPolitics

keep up the pressure, gop, remember reykjavik

lpast said:

I agree and im a republican...they refuse to cut the billions in subsidies that corporations recieve and instead want tax cuts for only the richest americans and corporations....subsidize them and give them tax cuts....whats wrong with this picture

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Will taxing industry reduce unemployment?

American said:

Will taxing industry reduce unemployment?

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It's not taxing industry. It's getting rid of subsidies and loopholes, which are something that a real fiscal conservative would be opposed to - because in reality that's picking winners and losers. Subsidize one corporation but let the other out in the dust - leave them all to do what they need to do without government aid, and without getting gigantic tax receipts from Uncle Sam and not paying anything.

The Prof said:

a HALF TRILLION DOLLARS of waste, most of it in the last 2 years

march 1:



GAO Finds Massive Waste, Duplication - FoxBusiness.com

incidentally, according to treasury, cap and trade which fortunately is dead would have cost producers and consumers "$200 billion a year or $1,800 per american household"

no more money for managers so morose

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The Prof said:

they're losing it, #'s 1 and 3 in house leadership

Pelosi: Debt Largely Accrued by George W Bush

Clyburn: Obama Doesn't Have "Time" For Debt Negotiations | RealClearPolitics

keep up the pressure, gop, remember reykjavik

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Moderator's Warning:

Thread has a topic. It's not a place for random link dumps.

Democrats want to blame GOP for what the dems did .Dems have controlled congress for 7 years and the white house for almost 3 year

Dick Durbin, Chuck Schumer Accuse GOP Of Sabotaging Economy For Political Gain


They also say this

Geithner: Taxes on

Gargantuan said:

It's not taxing industry. It's getting rid of subsidies and loopholes, which are something that a real fiscal conservative would be opposed to - because in reality that's picking winners and losers. Subsidize one corporation but let the other out in the dust - leave them all to do what they need to do without government aid, and without getting gigantic tax receipts from Uncle Sam and not paying anything.

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My sense is that if this was a fairminded review of tax deductions like the deficit committee called for there would be less angst. Instead what we have is Pelosi and company taking shots at specific industires they do not like.

This type of scapgoating has been used effectively by democrats over the last 2 plus years, but people may be getting tired of it.

Gargantuan said:

But that's the thing. Your GOP won't agree to cutting subsidies and loopholes. That is the discussion here. Raising taxes = raising revenue. Cutting these things will raise revenue. Eric Canter is a partisan hack who will not even agree to take a hit. We democrats are agreeing to cutting from our base, the lower middle class and middle class. The republicans won't agree to cutting subsidies and loopholes from theirs, even though they even control one part of the process (house)

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And this is owing to the fact 236 Republican representatives have signed Grover Norquist's Pledge not to raise taxes nor eliminate tax reduction without corresponding tax cuts.

http://www.atr.org/userfiles/Congressional_pledge(1).pdf

http://s3.amazonaws.com/atrfiles/files/files/060711-federalpledgesigners.pdf

My problem with the Republican is they are far more interested in getting their ideas across. They want to cut spending by a substantial amount of money which may be very unpopular with the Democrats, but they are not going to compromise as far as the wealthy tax cut is concerned.

OpportunityCost said:

Walking away from the talks is a bit of an exaggeration, moving onto the next phase would be more accurate...melodrama and hyberbole aside.

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Really? You wouldn't characterize two key Republican figures getting up and abruptly leaving negotiations as "walking out?"

Vice President Joe Biden and a handful of lawmakers had been working on a budget-cutting deal that would allow Congress to sign off on continued borrowing, but Republicans quit unexpectedly after saying the group had reached an impasse over tax increases sought by Democrats.

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