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Pawlenty's super-rich tax cuts

MrVicchio said:
Different situation Jet, different countries, your obsession with comparing apples and oranges is unhealthy.
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You fail to understand my point, you look at a lot of this stuff from a very one dimensional point of view, you tend to be rather reactionary and suggest economic ideas that you fail to grasp of their full effects. Not raising the debt ceiling being a recent example.

My point... Again! Is that there is this seriously unhealthy fixation on personal income taxes for the wealthy, for anyone for that matter, when the more complex issues of why the US is in the position it's in goes undiscussed...

There's a lot more to jobs and economies then that.
 
MrVicchio said:
That people need jobs... dman him for wanting to help people get jobs!
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So what specifically about his plan "creates" or even encourages job creation?
 
MrVicchio said:
What point, your silly class warfare rantings?
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where are the jobs that the bush tax cuts, which are still in effect, were supposed to create? where? according to conservative logic, we should have more jobs than we can fill.
 
Viktyr Korimir said:
If we eliminate the capital gains tax, we might as well give up all pretense of taxing the upper class at all, like the good old days of feudalism.

Of course, back then, the aristocracy made up for not paying taxes by fighting in wars.
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With the help of thousands of battlefield fodder from the lower-class for every member of the royalty who fought.
 
Jetboogieman said:
You fail to understand my point, you look at a lot of this stuff from a very one dimensional point of view, you tend to be rather reactionary and suggest economic ideas that you fail to grasp of their full effects. Not raising the debt ceiling being a recent example.

My point... Again! Is that there is this seriously unhealthy fixation on personal income taxes for the wealthy, for anyone for that matter, when the more complex issues of why the US is in the position it's in goes undiscussed...

There's a lot more to jobs and economies then that.
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I look at America, and how it works. What works here, doesn't always work elsewhere and vice versa.

I'm not obsessed with how much people make, I applaud success...

BTW On the debt ceiling... the answer is don't raise it. CUT SPENDING.
 
toddwv said:
So what specifically about his plan "creates" or even encourages job creation?
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Nothing, he just enriches his super rich friends at the expense of the hard working poor of America, I applaud this and scoff at poor people!
 
randel said:
where are the jobs that the bush tax cuts, which are still in effect, were supposed to create? where? according to conservative logic, we should have more jobs than we can fill.
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YEAH! You're so right, tax cuts just **** the little guy and make super rich people super more rich! **** the rich people! More taxes! More Regulations! That's the ticket to helping poor folks out and sticking it ot the evil rich people!!!
 
MrVicchio said:
I look at America, and how it works. What works here, doesn't always work elsewhere and vice versa.

I'm not obsessed with how much people make, I applaud success...[\QUOTE]

Either you're not addressing my point on purpose, or you're incapable of understanding it.

BTW On the debt ceiling... the answer is don't raise it. CUT SPENDING.
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I dare you. Just to see the look on your face when the country is in absolute collapse because of that kind of short sighted, reactionary thinking.
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MrVicchio said:
YEAH! You're so right, tax cuts just **** the little guy and make super rich people super more rich! **** the rich people! More taxes! More Regulations! That's the ticket to helping poor folks out and sticking it ot the evil rich people!!!
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i'm guessing you have nothing more to add to the conversation? the question was, where are the jobs? the conservative/republican mantra has always been cut taxes, cut taxes, cut taxes, cut taxes...they say it will stimulate the economy, CREATE JOBS...i'm simply asking, with bush tax cuts in place, why are we not seeing tons of jobs created? if lower taxes are equal to more jobs, WHERE ARE THE JOBS?
 
Jetboogieman said:
MrVicchio said:
I look at America, and how it works. What works here, doesn't always work elsewhere and vice versa.

I'm not obsessed with how much people make, I applaud success...[\QUOTE]

Either you're not addressing my point on purpose, or you're incapable of understanding it.



I dare you. Just to see the look on your face when the country is in absolute collapse because of that kind of short sighted, reactionary thinking.
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It's short sighted to say "We spend so ****ing much we have to keep borrowing, cut spending?" Your answer is to... borrow more?

:blink:
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randel said:
i'm guessing you have nothing more to add to the conversation? the question was, where are the jobs? the conservative/republican mantra has always been cut taxes, cut taxes, cut taxes, cut taxes...they say it will stimulate the economy, CREATE JOBS...i'm simply asking, with bush tax cuts in place, why are we not seeing tons of jobs created? if lower taxes are equal to more jobs, WHERE ARE THE JOBS?
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Are you serious? You're asking a logical question expecting a logical answer? Brother, all you're gonna get is the same ol' same ol' nonsense and maybe an insult or two thrown in. Good luck.

You got to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. There is no point in trying to debate a rock.
 
randel said:
i'm guessing you have nothing more to add to the conversation? the question was, where are the jobs? the conservative/republican mantra has always been cut taxes, cut taxes, cut taxes, cut taxes...they say it will stimulate the economy, CREATE JOBS...i'm simply asking, with bush tax cuts in place, why are we not seeing tons of jobs created? if lower taxes are equal to more jobs, WHERE ARE THE JOBS?
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There were no jobs, it's all a scam to enrich the super wealthy.



*Maybe I'm just not in the mood to bother going and posting information you'll just say is bull**** anyway? I figure if I just mock your position it cuts to the chase.
 
MrVicchio said:
Different situation Jet, different countries, your obsession with comparing apples and oranges is unhealthy.
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What is so different about the Canadian and German economies (aside from their functionality)
 
dontworrybehappy said:
No, I'm actually a true conservative. I actually don't believe the gov't has a greater right to your income than you do. Considering you're talking about taking money from someone that they have rightfully earned and the gov't hasn't, I'm all for any and all tax cuts. The gov't has been too bloated for too long. It's time to trim the fat, and that first comes in what you feed the cow.
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Ahh. More GOP Mantra.
Tax cuts for the rich.
ALL other Republican issues pale in comparison and... Fund Raising possibilities.

So it's up to Pawlenty (and you) to propose the Draconian Spending cuts that would allow this Laughable proposal. Of course, designating Those cuts would eliminate him as a candidate.
But "Free Money" always seems to work on our Stupid populace.

At current levels, even if we cut spending by 1/3, (which isn't happening) there would Still be No Money for Tax cuts but Deficit money.
(and try cutting Debt Service which is artificially low already due to QE low Interest rates)

So let's here it from you and Pawlenty.
50% Cuts of.... ??
BEFORE any Tax cuts.
Then I'll listen.
No more one-side-of-the-ledger/supply-side tomfoolery.
 
MrVicchio said:
Yes, because only super rich people invest money, the middle class, they don't... no won't help them at all...
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I'm not claiming that the middle class doesn't invest. I'm only pointing out that the majority of income for the upper classes comes in the form of capital gains, so eliminating the capital gains tax means effectively eliminating their entire tax burden. Capital gains is income, and aside from adjustments for inflation, it should be taxed like income. If anything, it should be taxed more heavily than income from wages or dividends, because wages and dividends represent more productive economic activity.

If we're going to cut taxes anywhere to improve the economy, it should be the corporate tax.

MrVicchio said:
Class warfare is beneath you Viktyr
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It's not a matter of class warfare. I am advocating for these taxes in the hopes of one day paying them.
 
MrVicchio said:
Jetboogieman said:
It's short sighted to say "We spend so ****ing much we have to keep borrowing, cut spending?" Your answer is to... borrow more?

:blink:
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That's only what you think I'm saying, not what I'm actually saying.

Go ahead, look it up, I have said repeatedly that the greatest threat to America is it's debt and long term fiscal imbalances.

But because my beliefs are flexible, and adaptable to changing information and that little thing called reality, I understand that, that sudden and reactionary approach can only lead to disaster.

A longer term solution is the only viable option... To do it your way would "balance the budget". But it would also tank the American economy, and the world economy.

If you think 2008 was bad, you ain't seen NOTHING yet.
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MrVicchio said:
There were no jobs, it's all a scam to enrich the super wealthy.



*Maybe I'm just not in the mood to bother going and posting information you'll just say is bull**** anyway? I figure if I just mock your position it cuts to the chase.
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I take your mocking as your surrender on the issue...where is the sanity in further cutting taxes, when we can't afford what we are spending now? whenever tax cuts for the wealthy are mentioned, the conservative comeback has always been 'it will create jobs and stimulate the economy'...i asked a valid question, with bush tax cuts still in force, where are all the jobs that this should have created? why isnt the economy going great guns? conservatives/republicans have been screaming it from the mountaintops for years that tax cuts are the magical elixir for job creation and economic activity.
 
winston53660 said:
MrVicchio said:
We could raise taxes. Ya know when the costs of production goes up for widgets usually widgets cost more.
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And drive away businesses and investments. That's a brilliant plan.

And of course, you'd raise unemployment, which in turn would require MORE spending to cover... and what then? Raise taxes some more?


I just don't get the mindset that when we're almost $15,000,000,000,000.00 in debt and climbing, looking at over $100,000,000,000,000.00 in unfunded liabilities for government social programs...

The answer is "raise taxes".

Taxes are a negative force in an economy. The higher they are, the less productivity you get in an area. That's just reality 101. Can you lower taxes too far? Sure you can, we're no where NEAR that point.

We need, to aggressively cut taxes to spur economic growth, seriously cut spending in all areas, but specifically in Social Spending. (that would be some near 60% of the budget), and start to pay down this ridiculous debt we have.
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MrVicchio said:
winston53660 said:
And drive away businesses and investments. That's a brilliant plan.

And of course, you'd raise unemployment, which in turn would require MORE spending to cover... and what then? Raise taxes some more?


I just don't get the mindset that when we're almost $15,000,000,000,000.00 in debt and climbing, looking at over $100,000,000,000,000.00 in unfunded liabilities for government social programs...

The answer is "raise taxes".

Taxes are a negative force in an economy. The higher they are, the less productivity you get in an area. That's just reality 101. Can you lower taxes too far? Sure you can, we're no where NEAR that point.

We need, to aggressively cut taxes to spur economic growth, seriously cut spending in all areas, but specifically in Social Spending. (that would be some near 60% of the budget), and start to pay down this ridiculous debt we have.
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i believe it has been shown, multiple times, in multiple threads, that taxes are at a historical low right now.
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randel said:
I take your mocking as your surrender on the issue...where is the sanity in further cutting taxes, when we can't afford what we are spending now?
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You can take it how you want, you will anyways. The sanity is on increased private sector economic activity = increased tax revenues. Higher taxes depress economic activity = lower revenues.

randel said:
whenever tax cuts for the wealthy are mentioned, the conservative comeback has always been 'it will create jobs and stimulate the economy'...i asked a valid question, with bush tax cuts still in force, where are all the jobs that this should have created? why isnt the economy going great guns? conservatives/republicans have been screaming it from the mountaintops for years that tax cuts are the magical elixir for job creation and economic activity.
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Because your question is frankly.. stupid. It's predicated on the only economic factor is "the bush tax cuts" and ignores everything that has occurred since then. When you are ready to be honest about the situation you're in I'm here to discuss the issue. So far you've proven that you are not a serious debater.

You refuse to address the 2008 economic collapse, the over spending that has the markets on edge, higher taxes and regulations being proposed and enacted by Obama and Co. , Obamacare...

These are factors that are causing those with money (ya know, the ones that create jobs..) to hold back, credit is highly restricted atm for example. You ignore all that because you know the answer, if oyu tax people with money MORE they'll be less likely to invest in small businesses, to invest in stocks, the lifeblood of corporations.
 
MrVicchio said:
You can take it how you want, you will anyways. The sanity is on increased private sector economic activity = increased tax revenues. Higher taxes depress economic activity = lower revenues.



Because your question is frankly.. stupid. It's predicated on the only economic factor is "the bush tax cuts" and ignores everything that has occurred since then. When you are ready to be honest about the situation you're in I'm here to discuss the issue. So far you've proven that you are not a serious debater.

You refuse to address the 2008 economic collapse, the over spending that has the markets on edge, higher taxes and regulations being proposed and enacted by Obama and Co. , Obamacare...

These are factors that are causing those with money (ya know, the ones that create jobs..) to hold back, credit is highly restricted atm for example. You ignore all that because you know the answer, if oyu tax people with money MORE they'll be less likely to invest in small businesses, to invest in stocks, the lifeblood of corporations.
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bull, tax cuts are supposed to be magical cure alls...will cure what ails ya...the republican answer for everything is 'more tax cuts'....you don't want to address that this strategy has FAILED..this strategy is akin to old school medicine...using leeches to 'bleed' a patient, instead of draining blood, you drain revenue. i don't remember ever hearing that this style of medicine was overly successful. as for your 'if you tax people with money' line, no, i don't buy this, people with money will invest regardless, they did back in the early 20th century when the upper tax bracket was 90%...those with money will invest with the goal of making even more money, regardless of the tax rate.

as stated, tax rates are already at historic lows in this country.
 
But lowering taxes is always good and raising taxes is always bad.

Even a temporary tax cut has to be permanent, because letting that tax cut expire would be raising taxes.
 
Jetboogieman said:
MrVicchio said:
That's only what you think I'm saying, not what I'm actually saying.

Go ahead, look it up, I have said repeatedly that the greatest threat to America is it's debt and long term fiscal imbalances.

But because my beliefs are flexible, and adaptable to changing information and that little thing called reality, I understand that, that sudden and reactionary approach can only lead to disaster.

A longer term solution is the only viable option... To do it your way would "balance the budget". But it would also tank the American economy, and the world economy.

If you think 2008 was bad, you ain't seen NOTHING yet.
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And what do you base this on? This "Disaster" on? Hmm?

you're no where near as flexible as you think you are.
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