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Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

senator obama, march, 2006, rationalizing his vote AGAINST raising the debt ceiling

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure,” he said. “It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.”

Obama 2006 vs. Obama January 2011 vs. Obama April 2011 on the Debt Ceiling - Political Punch

in january of this year robert gibbs, the least effective press secretary i've ever seen, told abc's jake tapper, the reason obama voted the way he did back then is cuz he knew his "vote was not needed"

recklessness, anyone?

leadership?
 
Yes Joe, you did. And I didn't say I handed it to you. Learn to read dude. As to the last part, you should start taking your own advice...night now...

J-mac

Did say you said you handed it to me. Your lack of understanding makes you think it was handed. What was that about learning to read? ;)

And as I don't use Moveon or anything equal to the American nonThinker. :coffeepap
 
Why is it going down? Aren't you making a leap in thinking it must be due to any single payer system?

As you can very well see with our current difficulties in government spending---government officials are piss poor at thinking long term. Most R&D spending is a long term investment and would be the easiest to cut from a budget. Companies, specifically Pharmaceutical companies know the payout on research and foot it gladly knowing it will pay itself back. I truly dont think government officials are smart enough to realize the impact of short term research cuts.

Note: I dont have any citation or anything to back this up, but if their spending is so much lower than ours, what do you think is the cause?
 
today:

A Chinese ratings house has accused the United States of defaulting on its massive debt, state media said Friday, a day after Beijing urged Washington to put its fiscal house in order.

"In our opinion, the United States has already been defaulting," Guan Jianzhong, president of Dagong Global Credit Rating Co. Ltd., the only Chinese agency that gives sovereign ratings, was quoted by the Global Times saying.

Washington had already defaulted on its loans by allowing the dollar to weaken against other currencies -- eroding the wealth of creditors including China, Guan said.

China is by far the top holder of US debt and has in the past raised worries that the massive US stimulus effort launched to revive the economy would lead to mushrooming debt that erodes the value of the dollar and its Treasury holdings.

China ratings house says US defaulting: report - Yahoo! News

can it be denied what mr guan declares?

recklessness, anyone?
 
If the issue is freezing the debt limit, then whatever the debt is, it wont get bigger. Thus, the number itself, in terms of my position, is irrelevant.
The key is the amount paid to debt service, represnted by net interest payments on said debt, which is greater than an order of magnitude smaller than federal income.

#1 and #3 are source data, with a citation, that prove my point, just like you wanted.
Are you ready to agree with my position, that federal revenue is sufficient to pay for the interest on the debt?
And that if we do not raise the debt ceiling and we default, it is because we made the choice to default?
2010 Revenue = $2,161.7B
2010 Debt breakdown: Discretionary Spending = $1,349.2; Mandatory Spending = $1,909.6; Interest on Debt = $196.9B
Total Debt w/o Interest Pymt = $3258.8B
Total Debt w/Interest = $3455.8B
Difference (Revenue - Debt w/o Interest) = -$1,097.1B
Difference (Revenue - Debt w/Interest) = -$1,294.1B

If it were just a matter of making our interest payment on the debt, I'd agree with you 100% as clearly we did generate more than enough revenue to pay the interest last year. However, as you can see the problem is far more grievious than that.

Even if we paid the interest alone for 2010, we still would have been short by -$1,097.1B. The only area we could have made significant cuts in was Discretionary spending. As things stood for 2010, the total of our Discretionary spending was more than the outstanding debt balance w/interest paid by -$55.1B ($1,349.2 - $1,294.1). Thus, the only way to have balanced the budget for 2010 would have been to totally cut Discretionary spending. Looking at the figures now, I can understand what Conservatives were screaming about. Nonetheless, it is clear that by the numbers (for 2010) we could not pay our debts in full w/interest. Furthermore, we won't be able to cut our way out of this financial mess alone. But I'll concede that IF it were just a matter of making the interest payment on the debt AND assuming we could restructure the debt as TOJ proposed (see post #116), we wouldn't have to raise the debt ceiling. But looking at the numbers and assuming that the figures would be similar to 2011 budgetary numbers, somehow I don't think it will be that simple.

At some point we'll have to cut spending, raise taxes, and restructure our loans. It's the only way to mitigate needing to raise the debt ceiling.
 
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If it were just a matter of making our interest payment on the debt, I'd agree with you 100% as clearly we did generate more than enough revenue to pay the interest.
Avoiding default IS just a matter of making the interest payment on the debt, as a default can only happen if we choose not to. By choosing to spend money on -anything else- to the point that we no longer have the revenue to make the interest payment, we choose to default on the debt.

That a failure to raise the ceiling must result in a default in only sound if you assume the status quo does not change; nothing precludes from changing the status quo, and so the assumption is unsound. All spending can be cut. All spending. Choosing not to do so means you've chosen to default.

Bottom line... failing to raise the debt ceiling in no way necessarily leads to default.
 
As you can very well see with our current difficulties in government spending---government officials are piss poor at thinking long term. Most R&D spending is a long term investment and would be the easiest to cut from a budget. Companies, specifically Pharmaceutical companies know the payout on research and foot it gladly knowing it will pay itself back. I truly dont think government officials are smart enough to realize the impact of short term research cuts.

Note: I dont have any citation or anything to back this up, but if their spending is so much lower than ours, what do you think is the cause?

The cause? One less paper work. One site suggests we would save a bundle there alone. Access is better, which allows earlier care before things get worse. It can be structured to better provide preventive care. Also, the cost whihc actually be less hidden than it is now where many don't realize how much is actually being spent on their insruance. Many ignore what the employer pays (this btw would also help business and better aid us in competiting internationally).

This is one source that attempts to make the case:

Single-Payer FAQ | Physicians for a National Health Program
 
Im speaking directly about R&D. Im not addressing single payer except to say that European development has gone down and continues to slide. You then threw out a red herring and didnt address what you think may be causing the slide in Europe. So, sorry, youre not posting very coherently. Pointing fingers at our system isnt the same as addressing why the supposedly superior system has shrinking R&D.

Again---what do you think is causing European R&D to slide?
 
Im speaking directly about R&D. Im not addressing single payer except to say that European development has gone down and continues to slide. You then threw out a red herring and didnt address what you think may be causing the slide in Europe. So, sorry, youre not posting very coherently. Pointing fingers at our system isnt the same as addressing why the supposedly superior system has shrinking R&D.

Again---what do you think is causing European R&D to slide?

Not sure one has anything to do with the other. Seriously, healthcare is all about R&D. How we help with R&D here may play a role in why we're doing better. Maybe focus? I don't pretend to know. But if you're going to say it is the health care system, I'd like you to explain how. Nothing that I support concerning a single payer system should effect R&D and how we do it here at all.

Allow me to add:

It would be too simplistic to attribute the relative lack of attractiveness of Europe for pharmaceutical R&D to one single factor. Contributing to this problem are the economic and regulatory framework, the science base, the investment conditions, and societal attitudes towards new technologies.

http://www.efpia.org/content/Default.asp?PageID=388
 
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It would be too simplistic to attribute the relative lack of attractiveness of Europe for pharmaceutical R&D to one single factor. Contributing to this problem are the economic and regulatory framework, the science base, the investment conditions, and societal attitudes towards new technologies.

you are incapable of writing the above paragraph, you really should use a quote box or at least quotation marks when pasting from a source

it's a matter of integrity, ie, character

single payer, by the way, here in america, y'know, in 2011, is a fantasy

reid can't even come close to a public option

Update: List of Dem Senators Who Don't Support the Public Option | TPM

sorry
 
Here, the NCPA report argues against price controls of drugs as ineffective, restricting research and development (R&D) of new drugs, and limiting access abroad to important new drugs through national drug formularies. It also argues that drug prices in other countries are often higher than in the United States.Unsupported claims are made: “On the whole, prescription drug prices in countries with national health insurance are comparable to U.S. prices despite stringent rationing of availability in the other countries” (4, p. 81) and “the United States produces by far the most innovative drugs” (p. 83). This argument breaks down under overwhelming evidence to the contrary:
78 / Geyman

• According to studies by the AARP Public Policy Institute, drug manufacturers’ drug prices are 69 percent higher in the United States than in Canada, wholesale prices are 72 percent higher, and retail prices up to 72 percent higher (71).

• According to IMS Health, a pharmaceutical industry research firm, in 2003 Americans spent $695 million on drugs bought from Canada (75).

• The average price for prescription drugs around the world is just one-quarter of the U.S. price (76).

• Even though R&D costs of many drugs developed in the United States are funded in large part by federal tax monies through basic research by the National Institutes of Health, drug manufacturers exaggerate their own
R&D expenditures, claiming that about $800 million are expended to bring a new drug to market (77). Studies by Public Citizen’s Health Research Group put that figure closer to $110 million (78).

• Most new drugs are not innovative and are merely “me-too” drugs with minimal structural change but maximal marketing hype as “breakthroughs,” launching another 17-year period of patent protection (79). The nonprofit
Myths about Single-Payer Health Insurance / 79

Table 3

Investor-owned care: Comparative examples versus not-for-profit care
Hospitals
HMOs
Dialysis centers
Nursing homes
Mental health centers

Costs 3 to 13 percent higher, with higher overhead, fewer nurses, and death rates 6 to 7 percent higher (56–61)
Higher overhead (25 to 33 percent for some of the largest
HMOs); worse scores on 14 of 14 quality indicators reported
to National Committee for Quality Assurance (62–64)
Death rates 30 percent higher, with 26 percent less use of
transplants (65, 66)
Lower staffing levels and worse quality of care (30 percent
committed violations that caused death or life-threatening
harm to patients) (67)
Medicare expelled 80 programs after investigations found
that 91 percent of claims were fraudulent (68); for-profit
behavioral health companies impose restrictive barriers and
limits to care (e.g., premature discharge from hospitals
without adequate outpatient care) (69)
Source: Geyman (55); adapted with permission from the American Board of Family Practice,
Lexington, Kentucky.
National Institute of Health Care Management estimates that 85 percent
of drugs approved by the FDA between 1989 and 2000 were modifications
of existing drugs (80).
• Fifty-seven percent of the more important new drugs are discovered by
R&D in other countries and later marketed in the United States (81). The
European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries, despite the presence
of price controls in their countries, spent $47 billion on R&D in 2002, about
50 percent more than R&D spending by U.S. drug manufacturers (82, 83).
• The price of Lanoxin (digoxin), the most common drug used by the elderly,
rose seven times the inflation rate in 1998 (84). Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), a
long-term drug used by patients with breast cancer, costs $360 in the United
States for a 30-day supply, compared with $60 at the pharmacy at the Munich
International Airport in Germany (85).
Competing Abroad

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/myths_memes.pdf
 
Sorry bud, Physicians for a National Health Program may not be the most reliable sources on how efficient or inefficient the European and Canadian systems are. As a hint, dig up how we track infant mortality in the US and how they track it in Canada. Ill help you out some and tell you it isnt the same.
 
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