Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

cpwill said:

what? i quoted your post in full.


but the question stands. if you yourself would feel awkward exposing yourself to a mixed audience, why do people demand that the only reason people in the military could feel the same way is because they must be bigoted?

Click to expand...

Many people feel uncomfortable getting naked in front of anyone that they aren't intimate with, it doesn't matter what the sex of the people are. I know that I wouldn't feel any more comfortable with being naked in front of a gay guy then I would a straight guy. I would be slightly more comfortable being naked in front of a gay girl though than being naked in front of a gay guy, because I could be attracted to the guy, but not the girl, so I would care more about the way the gay guy saw me than how the gay girl saw me. Not everyone feels this way about it, but most people would still prefer to not be naked in front of anyone they aren't intimate with and/or comfortable with.

Another example, I would get naked in front of any of my female relatives without a second thought, even my sister who is bi. I would not however get naked in front of any of my male relatives, with the exceptions of my husband and sons (although this is changing), even if they came out as gay. It isn't about attraction, but rather what people are used to. My mother can be naked in front of pretty much anyone without feeling uncomfortable.

But that works the same way for the guys that you are talking about too. Everyone who joined the military in the last almost 2 decades has been well aware that they would most likely be serving with a gay person in their unit at one point or another (unless they are in complete denial). They should know that even with the compromise that someone who found them attractive could be seeing them naked.

If you didn't know the sexuality of a man and a woman each in a different room, and you had to go into one of those two rooms to get naked, which would you choose? Which do you think most women would choose? If it was for an exam, which would you rather perform the exam on you? Which do you think most women would rather have do this?

roguenuke said:

Many people feel uncomfortable getting naked in front of anyone that they aren't intimate with, it doesn't matter what the sex of the people are.

Click to expand...

That'd be me. I had to get over it, of course. Every chance I got though, I claimed I was a periodic maniac just so I could use the private showers. I don't remember public showers in basic or AIT.

Jerry said:

He didn't edit your post, but I would like to know where in Azeroth you are.

Grinding some city rep, perhaps?

Click to expand...

I'm in the process of moving my toons to Silvermoon, since I found a level 25 guild there. This makes me very much happy. Before that, all my horde toons were on Galakrond, with the bulk of my Quel'dorei toons en route to Silvermoon.

I thought you quit?

When I do play, I'm working on getting my 12 80+ toons to 85. I only have one 85 thus far. I play a lot less since I started working on the 16th of last month.

cpwill said:

or we have to deal with the paperwork side that comes with all of the sexual and discipline issues that we already see in the mixed-gender units.

Click to expand...

The numbers ratios are completely different. There will not be nearly as much, and women and men do not react the same way to harassment, in general. Women do not, in general, have the option of handling the situation on their own, so if they feel they are being harassed, they will either ignore it or tell someone who they believe can handle it, a guy they trust or their chain of command. Guys are much more aggressive, in general, and would be likely to try to handle it on their own or ignore the situation or, possibly, get other guys to help them with the situation. A guy is much less likely to turn someone in for harassment just because it would reflect on them as "weakness", that they couldn't handle it on their own.

cpwill said:

you just said that the response would be aggressive. are you honestly going to tell me that that kind of a history won't negatively impact a units' later performance?

Click to expand...

Aggression that is likely happening now, but not reported because if it involved a guy who was gay, he could get kicked out. So he would just be taking the abuse, even in cases where he didn't instigate it, out of fear that it may come to light that he is gay and so he would be punished too.

cpwill said:

given that the only change that could be introduced now would be in a positive direction, i find this exceedingly unlikely.

Click to expand...

Yes, right, this change is a positive, because it means that discrimination based on sexuality can be brought into the light without fear of discharge. Those who cannot accept this will just have to either pretend, get out, or face punishment. I am quite confident that most of the guys, even in combat units, will just accept the change and move on, since it is unlikely to affect most of them anyway.

cpwill said:

not at all (although the law of numbers says that will happen - certainly our straight males hit on females that aren't interested all the time). i am of the belief that if a gay man is serving openly, that means the other male members of the unit will know he is gay, and that will reduce intimacy and cohesion.

Click to expand...

Statistics say that the amount of incidences of harassment due to gay members serving openly will be much lower than that of females serving with males, just from the fact that there are fewer gays serving total than there are women. You apparently either missed or ignored my post on this.

cpwill said:

well it will be better for the units if they do so. but if you are willing to admit this, then why not have come clean with that at the beginning?

Click to expand...

What would be best is for everyone in units to get over their fears of the gays and act professionally about this. If they are gay, they should not be hitting on people in their unit, especially not on duty (of course, this should be true for mixed units as well). If a straight guy gets hit on by a gay guy (simply asked out or something like this), then the guy needs to decline and probably explain why such actions are inappropriate, but they shouldn't be acting out aggressively and/or turning someone in for something like this, especially if it happens in off-time. If a person is being harassed by someone else, whether gay or straight, then they need to start taking it up the chain of command. I don't think that everyone will follow this, but there are a lot of people who will or they will just ignore behaviors that they consider to not be harmful.

Again, though, I don't really believe that we should be allowing discrimination just to let people feel more comfortable. And it is unlikely that this change will truly cause a lot of problems just from the small amount of gays in the military and the fact that most of them will act professionally and most of those working with them will act professionally as well.

BDBoop said:

That'd be me. I had to get over it, of course. Every chance I got though, I claimed I was a periodic maniac just so I could use the private showers. I don't remember public showers in basic or AIT.

Click to expand...

I don't have a huge issue with getting naked in front of other women, but that doesn't mean I am comfortable doing it, but it definitely helps to have been in the military and had to do it at least during basic. Actually, I don't really have much of an issue getting naked in front of men (besides my brothers and other male relatives, because that just feels weird) depending on why I am getting naked for them. If it is for their pleasure, then yes, it is an issue (I couldn't be a stripper), but if it is for some other purpose, such as my convenience, then it really isn't a big deal.

katiegrrl0 said:

So why do you have a problem with gays and hate them so much?

Click to expand...

Why do you hate our military and want to see them lose valuable training time, lose unit cohesion and see soldiers get killed?

katiegrrl0 said:

Well if they aren't brainwashed but the training, basic training isn't working. Disliking gays is not an emotion. It is a determined thought process. That's why it's called bigotry and not an emotional disorder.

Click to expand...

Basic Training is just that, basic training. Training is a 24/7/365 day activity in the military. If a soldier isn't training, nor sleeping, or on leave, then something is wrong.

katiegrrl0 said:

You have pretty much hit the nail on the head. Good job assessing their abilities.

Click to expand...

Yeah. They're human and have the same faults and short comings that anyone else has.

katiegrrl0 said:

So you are saying that the standard person in the military is a low life bigot. You have a terrible opinion of your military don't you? Why do you hate gays so much? Why are you afraid of us? That's pretty laughable. All these big brave straight folks being afraid of gays. hehehehehehe

Click to expand...

Anyone that doesn't think exactly like you is a low life bigot?

katiegrrl0 said:

If it adds stress than the mindless idiots that are stressed certainly do not belong in the military. Those that believe that it will add stress and want to support that fact and would defend bigots that are stressed by gays make the same statement about themselves. I don't get stressed by straight people. Why would a straight person that isn't a bigot get stressed by gays?

Click to expand...

You need to head down to your local recruiter and sign on the dotted line.

cpwill said:

still waiting on you to post those naked pictures



not at all. this is what - after all - you are demanding that male members of the military be willing to do.

Click to expand...

Like I said that is an asinine request. I am not so ignorant to post any nude pictures of me. Nor do I take them. So consider the request stupid and meaningless to defend the fact that you defend bigoted policy and therefore are a bigot. I am asking males to be able to live with males. If the straight males are such cowards as to not be willing to undress in front of a gay male perhaps they should not be in the military. So in the end what i am saying is that bigot cowards are not needed in the military. Maybe that's why your win loss record of late is none to good.

cpwill said:

which doesn't mean that increasing that stress will not have impact.



no, what it will do is reduce unit cohesion and create a whole new bevy of problems for the units that can least afford them. up until this point combat units had been somewhat protected by the fact that they were all-male units - and thus didn't have to deal with the problems that women servicemembers bring with them as regards the natural effects of the introduction of sexual tension. now, we are stripping that from them. these units are already dealing with enough problems and now we are dumping another in their laps :shrug: if you think it's worth the price they will pay in blood so be it - we are a society that deliberately places the military subordinate to politics, and believes fundamentally in fair play - but let's be upfront about the price they will pay.

Click to expand...

Except that the studies into this actually determined that this is not true. So we can take your word on it, when you want it to be the way you say, or we can take the word of actual research into the subject. I wonder which I will trust...

cpwill said:

as soon as you begin advocating forcing female servicemembers to strip down in front of the males, let me know.

Click to expand...

Hint for those who seem to be confused: gay men are not women. Not even a little bit. In fact, the opposite, they are men. In some cases more manly and macho than strait men. Irrelevant comparisons are irrelevant.

cpwill said:

no, it is merely an accurate depiction of the social setting you are creating.



are you so afraid that the guys on the board here will want you if you post naked pictures? why do you persist in such a childish attitude?

Click to expand...

No it is actually an asinine statement. A ploy of a bigot to create some kind of premise on which to defend his bigoted attitude.
I could care less who would see me naked but I am not so ignorant as to have pictures of me that way anyhow. You are not even making an accurate example. If you like to flash your naked pictures on line maybe that's your thing. Do you? How many people to you post your naked pics to?

cpwill said:

this is incorrect. the ACLU, for example, defends racists, nazis, the westboro baptist folks, etc. alike. The Supreme Court and the Constitution does so as well.



i don't have to pretend anything. opposing the repeal of DADT because it would have a deleterious effect on combat readiness is not the equivalent of bigotry, however much you wish to pretend that it is.

Click to expand...

Yeah the bigots would be offended. They will be so upset that there masculinity will be challenged. Gays usually keep to gays. I don't hit on straight women so why would a gay man hit on a straight guy. Unless that straight guy is just in the closet.

cpwill said:

why betty? why wouldn't you expose yourself in front of a mixed audience? would it be better if that audience instead was generally made up solely of 18-22 year old males?

Click to expand...

It is not whether or not one cars who sees who the fact is many people do not chose to post nude pics of self on the computer. You may like to do this and have fun doing it. So whatever floats your boat. So in fact it is not the same. You are trying to defend your bigoted position and find yourself unable to without some asinine horse hockey question that is meaningless to the point.

katiegrrl0 said:

Yeah the bigots would be offended. They will be so upset that there masculinity will be challenged. Gays usually keep to gays. I don't hit on straight women so why would a gay man hit on a straight guy. Unless that straight guy is just in the closet.

Click to expand...

How long before you et. al. understand that it has nothing to do with all that and that these talking points are just the typical Libbos insults towards people who don't agree with them?

I should have known it would be impossible to have a rational discussion with a Liberal on this subject.

cpwill said:

i don't have to pretend anything. opposing the repeal of DADT because it would have a deleterious effect on combat readiness is not the equivalent of bigotry, however much you wish to pretend that it is.

Click to expand...

There is a potential argument that claiming a group of people are not fit to serve and will disrupt military readiness, especially when this argument flies in the face of all research on the topic, is in fact bigoted. It is certainly stupid.

apdst said:

How long before you et. al. understand that it has nothing to do with all that and that these talking points are just the typical Libbos insults towards people who don't agree with them?

I should have known it would be impossible to have a rational discussion with a Liberal on this subject.

Click to expand...

Backatcha, peaches.

apdst said:

How long before you et. al. understand that it has nothing to do with all that and that these talking points are just the typical Libbos insults towards people who don't agree with them?

I should have known it would be impossible to have a rational discussion with a Liberal on this subject.

Click to expand...

The irony of rehashing a lame talking point bitching about talking points is not lost on me.

apdst said:

Why do you hate our military and want to see them lose valuable training time, lose unit cohesion and see soldiers get killed?

Click to expand...

I have no use for anyone's military. It's not just yours. But you have not answered my question as to why you hate gays so much?

apdst said:

Anyone that doesn't think exactly like you is a low life bigot?

Click to expand...

No they are not. Thinking that gays would hurt the military just by them being known is bigoted. That is a child's mentality.

katiegrrl0 said:

I have no use for anyone's military. It's not just yours. But you have not answered my question as to why you hate gays so much?

Click to expand...

Not hate. He's fine with them! As long as he doesn't know they are gay.

katiegrrl0 said:

I have no use for anyone's military. It's not just yours. But you have not answered my question as to why you hate gays so much?

Click to expand...

Why do you think I hate gays? Have I said that gays shouldn't be allowed to serve in the military? I didn't? I didn't think so. How about you ask me what I think of the idea, before you automatically assume that since I'm not in lockstep with you, that I hate gays.

apdst said:

You need to head down to your local recruiter and sign on the dotted line.

Click to expand...

I would not waste my time. I find the military for any nation repugnant.