War on drugs a bust: commission

digsbe said:

We already have oral ingestion of THC. Dronabinol is a prescription drug that is THC. It's a controlled substance and may only be obtained via a prescription from a doctor and the dispensing/approval of a pharmacist. Nonetheless, it's a controlled substance and as such it should (and is) illegal to use without a prescription.

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I'm willing to bet that far more people use without a prescription, than with.
People shouldn't do all sorts of things, like eating to much, but they do anyway.

Should these things also be illegal?

digsbe said:

Did you read what you quoted? Look at the second paragraph. THC is the psychoactive chemical in marijuana, I doubt that will cause cancer. However, smoking marijuana may cause cancer as the second paragraph and my source also points out.

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Yes, and like many others it has to use words such as "may". Like I said, it has yet to be proven.

In my personal opinion, if it hasn't reared its ugly head as of now, why would it anytime in the future?

Harry Guerrilla said:

Drugs are still easy to find and use.
Hell one of the best places to get them, is at school.

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But, what evidence is there that the war on drugs isn't working? IOW, how much worse might it be, without drug enforcement?

What it boils down to, is that there's no way to say, with any amount of credibility, that the WOD is a failure.

For all the evidence you have that it's failed, I have as much evidence that it's been a smashing success and without it this country would be in far worse shape, as far as the social fabric is concerned. In fact, I have more evidence of such, because the illegal cigarette and alcohol industries are larger than the illegal drugs industry is and currently, alcohol and cigarettes are legal. How do you explain that?

xpiher said:

You must live in a rural area. The war on drugs fuels crime, just like prohibition. Thinking other wise is delusional, willful ignorance, or being part of the problem.

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Did the end of prohibition mean the end of the illegal liquir business? The answer would be, no.

digsbe said:

Marijuana has 50% more benzopyrene in it than a cigarette. Also
Source:Marijuana In The Body - A Fact Sheet On The Effects Of Marijuana | Busted - America's War On Marijuana | FRONTLINE | PBS

Benzopyrene will lodge itself into your DNA. It may not cause cancer, but just like cigarettes it can cause cancer and the risk is significantly higher. Marijuana isn't the healthy drug that people want to misrepresent it as. It may have a high tolerance in regards to toxicity, but it isn't healthy.




Did you read what you quoted? Look at the second paragraph. THC is the psychoactive chemical in marijuana, I doubt that will cause cancer. However, smoking marijuana may cause cancer as the second paragraph and my source also points out.

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Sorry, you still fail to deliver on your justification for the illegality of marijuana, though you have a point, we all know THC is not cancerous. Marijuana is not physically addictive. Of all the polls done, the majority of marijuana smokers are people who smoke it a few times a month and that's it. Daily marijuana smokers are in extremely low numbers and that's been proven time and time again. Nicotine = physically addictive = requiring more cigarettes = more chance for a mutation in DNA = more chance for cancer. Cannabis = not physically addictive, smoken very moderately by the majority of users, and the amount of benzopyrene is pretty negligible, once again considering cigarettes are smoken in much huger quantities and more frequently due to the physical addiction.

Gargantuan said:

Sorry, you still fail to deliver. Marijuana is not physically addictive. Of all the polls done, the majority of marijuana smokers are people who smoke it a few times a month and that's it. Daily marijuana smokers are in extremely low numbers and that's been proven time and time again. Nicotine = physically addictive = requiring more cigarettes = more chance for a mutation in DNA = more chance for cancer. Cannabis = not physically addictive, smoken very moderately by the majority of users, and the amount of benzopyrene is pretty negligible, once again considering cigarettes are smoken in much huger quantities and more frequently due to the physical addiction.

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Marijuana is psychologically addictive because of the THC.

There's a delivery for ya. It's also 5 times more cancer causing than tobacco. Another delivery.

apdst said:

Marijuana is psychologically addictive because of the THC.

There's a delivery for ya. It's also 5 times more cancer causing than tobacco. Another delivery.

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Psychologically addictive occurs with anything, up to an including porn addictions, overeating, game addiction, and even gambling. There are no withdrawal symptoms with marijuana, therefore it is not physically addictive, like nicotine or heroin.

Alright, but you didn't answer any of my post about how tobacco is used in greater quantity and therefore it counteracts the whole "5x more cancer causing" bull****. Please refer back to that part of my post. Really sick of people picking and choosing what parts of my arguments to, well, argue.

Gargantuan said:

Psychologically addictive occurs with anything, up to an including porn addictions, overeating, game addiction, and even gambling. There are no withdrawal symptoms with marijuana, therefore it is not physically addictive, like nicotine or heroin.

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Well, that's not true, either.

Well, that's not true, either.

Marijuana Withdrawal Syndrome | Brain Blogger

Alright, but you didn't answer any of my post about how tobacco is used in greater quantity and therefore it counteracts the whole "5x more cancer causing" bull****. Please refer back to that part of my post. Really sick of people picking and choosing what parts of my arguments to, well, argue.

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A person can smoke cigarettes without getting all ****ed up, therefore they are going to smoke more. Obviously, they're not going to smoke 20 joints a day.

No man, that's wrong. A person does not smoke more cigarettes because they know they won't get more ****ed up. It's a nicotine addiction, plain and simple. You can take two bong hits and be high for 2-3 hours and then that's it. Tobacco smokers have a PHYSICAL CRAVING for nicotine, and if they do not get it, their withdrawl symptoms get very ugly.

That is a test conducted in mice and dogs who were exposed to extremely large amounts. That's like the studies the US gov did in the 60s on Rhesus monkeys by pretty much drowning them in marijuana smoke for months.

As for the testimonies, those are in no way credible, and even if you wanted to make them credible, note that the people who answered smoked on a very consistent basis. Smoking once a day is not good for you in any way and if doing it prolonged, it will cause issues, just like any other drug. As for marijuana, the issues that can be caused are extremely lower than that of Alcohol and Tobacco, and you simply cannot argue that. Every recent medical study (including this one) has listed tobacco and alcohol as much more dangerous than Marijuana. Infact, off the topic of marijuana, alcohol has been put on top of coke in many studies as well.

As for your 5 x worse thing, I seem to have missed that. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/?tool=pubmed

HAS NOT BEEN CASUALLY LINKED WITH LUNG CANCER hmm.. what else.. how about A connection between marijuana smoking and lung or colorectal cancer was not observed. Or better yet this:
Furthermore, compounds found in cannabis have been shown to kill numerous cancer types including: lung cancer [9], breast and prostate [10], leukemia and lymphoma [11], glioma [12], skin cancer [13], and pheochromocytoma [14]. The effects of cannabinoids are complex and sometimes contradicting, often exhibiting biphasic responses.

It seems your claims have just been sent out the window. Disclaimer though.. a lot of the stuff in the report is over the head of anyone who hasn't taken college level biology, sorry about that.

digsbe said:

Marijuana is indeed a dangerous drug. Benzopyrene is not your friend, nor do your lungs appreciate it.

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Coffee has benzopyrene, and much more of based upon comparative consumption. Should the Mexican cartel take over the coffee bean market too? Any one want to buy a kilo of Organic Arabica?

apdst said:

It's also 5 times more cancer causing than tobacco. Another delivery.

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Even if this were true, the average pot smoker smokes less the 20 time the equivalent in tobacco. That pretty much takes care of that nonsense.

apdst said:

But, what evidence is there that the war on drugs isn't working? IOW, how much worse might it be, without drug enforcement?

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1. People still do drugs.
2. We have empirical non-criminal models in other countries that have proven to be more effective for drug users and cheaper on the tax payers.

empireofreason said:

1. People still do drugs.
2. We have empirical non-criminal models in other countries that have proven to be more effective for drug users and cheaper on the tax payers.

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Not just that people still do drugs, but the point is that drug use has gone up. Marijuana by 8% I believe, coke by 35%, and heroin somewhere in the 20s. This is since the 90s. That was referenced in the study.

Temporal said:

War on drugs a bust: commission - World - CBC News



You can find a link to the full report on the CBC website.

This is big news on the international policy level. I am not at all surprised that American news sources are not talking about it (a co-worker forwarded it to me). The war on drugs has been a colossal waste mainly instigated and supported by private business interests.

It's time to end the cycle of social destruction and bring back freedom to people's lives. Spain and Portugal have both legalized small possession of all drugs and their drug use rate has been dropping like a stone. You give people agency and transparency, and they use it. What a shocker.

At the same time, keep targeting the drug lords who are bringing violence and destruction to our society. The best way to do that is to greatly reduce their black market.

The solution has been obvious for decades now but it is now reaching a cresendo. I expect this report to be buried because it speaks the truth, but I thought it was worth bringing up so that people know there is GLOBAL recognition that the UN drug policy (mainly a carbon copy of the U.S. DEA policy) has been a dismal failure with dire consequences.

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It's about time a commission with some global juice says out loud what I've been saying for decades. Prohibition never works, it just fuels crime syndicates to supply what the public demands. Education, not prohibition, is the way to go. Make drugs legal, regulate them, tax them, use the tax money to fund increased rehabilitation and education. Our prisons and courtrooms would empty out immediately, and law enforcement would be free to go after real criminals, the kind that hurt other people, not just themselves.

The government has to learn eventually that it cannot control what people choose to do to their own adult bodies. This is a big step. Eventually, the US government will have to acknowledge this failure... although I don't hold much hope that government will actually learn from its own mistakes. It rarely does.

Thanks for making tha point clearer.

apdst said:

But, what evidence is there that the war on drugs isn't working? IOW, how much worse might it be, without drug enforcement?

What it boils down to, is that there's no way to say, with any amount of credibility, that the WOD is a failure.

For all the evidence you have that it's failed, I have as much evidence that it's been a smashing success and without it this country would be in far worse shape, as far as the social fabric is concerned. In fact, I have more evidence of such, because the illegal cigarette and alcohol industries are larger than the illegal drugs industry is and currently, alcohol and cigarettes are legal. How do you explain that?

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I see that you are an authoritarian conservative. It is highly unlikely you will listen to anything I have to say as I lack authority.

Human beings have been aware of the psychoactive properties of marijuana and were enjoying them before and during the entire lifespan of our civilization.

In fact, some form of most of the drugs being used today have some analogue that has accompanied us during our entire journey from the Savannah to now.

Yet our civilization exists. Despite all the drugs that will destroy it, according to anti-drug claims.

And the entire "war" has been a game of catch up the entire time. Whack a mole. Black markets are like that.

Prohibition tends to create more problems than the behavior it is adopted to prevent. Along with rich criminals.

Waste of time and energy, like arguing with authoritarian conservatives.:2wave:

apdst said:

But, what evidence is there that the war on drugs isn't working? IOW, how much worse might it be, without drug enforcement?

What it boils down to, is that there's no way to say, with any amount of credibility, that the WOD is a failure.

For all the evidence you have that it's failed, I have as much evidence that it's been a smashing success and without it this country would be in far worse shape, as far as the social fabric is concerned. In fact, I have more evidence of such, because the illegal cigarette and alcohol industries are larger than the illegal drugs industry is and currently, alcohol and cigarettes are legal. How do you explain that?

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Compare the violence during prohibition and after alcohol was legalized again in the U.S. I'm a pragmatist when it comes to drug use in the U.S. I think if the government legalizes marijuana and taxes it like they do alcohol, they increase tax revenue, stimulate the economy with increased jobs, and experience a sharp decline in crime related activities. It will also become much harder to acquire by those who are underage.

So it's like alcohol, if you don't partake in it's consumption, that's your business.

apdst said:

What it boils down to, is that there's no way to say, with any amount of credibility, that the WOD is a failure.

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States are passing laws that go directly against the War On Drugs.

That's a failure.

Nobody wants the WOD except the government who makes a ****load of money off of arresting petty criminals, and the people who feel like me getting high is immoral. The latter is the same issue with gay rights, you can't tell me what I can and can't do with my own body.

apdst said:

Marijuana is psychologically addictive because of the THC.

There's a delivery for ya. It's also 5 times more cancer causing than tobacco. Another delivery.

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It is NOT 5 times more cancer causing. It has 5 times the amount of certain selected carcinogens (such as tar). However, the incidence rate of cancers (esp. lung, and head and neck carcinomas) are statistically insignificant when isolated for marijuana use.

There are numerous studies, papers, and ongoing research regarding the ant-tumor, and anti carcinogen properties of cannabinoids (including THC) found in marijuana. I have posted many of these studies here in threads at DP before, I do not have time to so so now though, I am waiting to get picked up to go kayaking, and could be heading out at any moment.

But in a nutshell summation, inhaled MJ is not 5 times as likely to cause cancer than cigs despite having more carcinogens present, it seems it also has anticarcinogens that offset them.

edit to add link to a previous post of mine that has several studies linked (there are many more):

http://www.debatepolitics.com/health-care/89061-marijuana-cuts-lung-cancer-tumor-growth-half-harvard-study-shows-2.html#post1059197232

Temporal said:

War on drugs a bust: commission - World - CBC News



You can find a link to the full report on the CBC website.

This is big news on the international policy level. I am not at all surprised that American news sources are not talking about it (a co-worker forwarded it to me). The war on drugs has been a colossal waste mainly instigated and supported by private business interests.

It's time to end the cycle of social destruction and bring back freedom to people's lives. Spain and Portugal have both legalized small possession of all drugs and their drug use rate has been dropping like a stone. You give people agency and transparency, and they use it. What a shocker.

At the same time, keep targeting the drug lords who are bringing violence and destruction to our society. The best way to do that is to greatly reduce their black market.

The solution has been obvious for decades now but it is now reaching a cresendo. I expect this report to be buried because it speaks the truth, but I thought it was worth bringing up so that people know there is GLOBAL recognition that the UN drug policy (mainly a carbon copy of the U.S. DEA policy) has been a dismal failure with dire consequences.

Click to expand...

We need to stop treating drugs as if they were a criminal problem and start treating drugs as what they actually are, a health problem. If we did this, the prison population would decrease greatly and save taxpayers loads of cash.

apdst said:

But, what evidence is there that the war on drugs isn't working? IOW, how much worse might it be, without drug enforcement?

What it boils down to, is that there's no way to say, with any amount of credibility, that the WOD is a failure.

For all the evidence you have that it's failed, I have as much evidence that it's been a smashing success and without it this country would be in far worse shape, as far as the social fabric is concerned. In fact, I have more evidence of such, because the illegal cigarette and alcohol industries are larger than the illegal drugs industry is and currently, alcohol and cigarettes are legal. How do you explain that?

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So, I take it you'll stop suggesting that the stimulus package failed? Since we don't have evidence that the country would be doing better without it.

digsbe said:

We already have oral ingestion of THC. Dronabinol is a prescription drug that is THC. It's a controlled substance and may only be obtained via a prescription from a doctor and the dispensing/approval of a pharmacist. Nonetheless, it's a controlled substance and as such it should (and is) illegal to use without a prescription.

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Hate to get all conspiracy-ish here, but that post completely proves the previous one:

solletica said:

There is no war on drugs. You are legally allowed to get as high as you want on as many drugs as you want as long as you buy your drugs from Big Pharma instead of a Mexican cartel.

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helloioioi

empireofreason said:

Coffee has benzopyrene, and much more of based upon comparative consumption. Should the Mexican cartel take over the coffee bean market too? Any one want to buy a kilo of Organic Arabica?

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What price?

Deuce said:

So, I take it you'll stop suggesting that the stimulus package failed? Since we don't have evidence that the country would be doing better without it.

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I think it's purdy obvious that the stealfromus package is a flop. :lamo