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US extends controversial Patriot Act

Yea Obama!! Yea hope and change!!!
:clap:
 
GPS_Flex said:
The jerks in power always abuse the laws and even the Constitution itself. Do you propose that we get rid of the Constitution because of incorrect interpretations thereof or would you rather see us throw some of them in jail or out of office at a minimum?

If these senators are privy to abuses of the law, they need to start impeaching whoever is culpable or having them brought before the courts for prosecution rather than whining about it publicly.
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From the very first link I shared:

"When the American people find out how their government has secretly interpreted the Patriot Act, they will be stunned and they will be angry," Wyden said in a prepared statement.

[...]

Wyden said his concerns are not confined to the text of the law itself but also apply to how it is carried out. He noted that actions taken under the Patriot Act are often cloaked in secrecy.

[...]

While Obama campaigned on reversing what he characterized as Bush administration civil rights abuses committed in the name of national security, Obama has since embraced measures such as the Patriot Act and invoking the state secrets privilege to bar certain activities from coming to light in court.
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Who would do the prosecuting? That would be the same Attorney General and the same US Attorneys who are interpreting the law so as to give the government the widest latitude possible under the law in question.

Prosecutorial discretion is a powerful tool when abused.

Another tactic they use is deploying questionable authority to get as much information from someone as they can, withdrawing their demands only when challenged. This tactic has been used often and quite successfully with National Security Letters -- they have never been successfully challenged in court, primarily because the government withdraws them before a finding can be made which limits their use and power.

GPS_Flex said:
Oh, thanks for your 5 seconds of brainless activity.
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You're entirely welcome, and thank you for acknowledging that even 5 seconds of brainless activity can clearly demonstrate that the PATRIOT Act needs to go. :D
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
From the very first link I shared:



Who would do the prosecuting? That would be the same Attorney General and the same US Attorneys who are interpreting the law so as to give the government the widest latitude possible under the law in question.

Prosecutorial discretion is a powerful tool when abused.

Another tactic they use is deploying questionable authority to get as much information from someone as they can, withdrawing their demands only when challenged. This tactic has been used often and quite successfully with National Security Letters -- they have never been successfully challenged in court, primarily because the government withdraws them before a finding can be made which limits their use and power.



You're entirely welcome, and thank you for acknowledging that even 5 seconds of brainless activity can clearly demonstrate that the PATRIOT Act needs to go. :D
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If we use your logic, the Constitution of the United States must go too. Maybe you can commit 10 seconds of real thought to the issue and realize that we can’t throw out every law that gets abused by those in power or we would be left with no laws.

The Patriot Act has helped stop a lot of attacks here in the US so its positives are obvious. If you want to scare me into thinking it is being abused, you will need to do more than give me the opinions of a couple of career liars who have political reasons for opposition thereto.

Why don’t you demand that your elected officials follow the letter of the law or get arrested/booted out of office rather than demand that good laws be thrown out due to abuse? Could it be that you support the bastardization of laws when it suits your political objectives?
 
As i said in the other thread that talked about them about to extend it...

Zyphlin said:
Glad its being extended. Patriot will continue in the method it has over the past decade. The questionable and downright over the line portions of it will be stripped out through legislation and the court system, while the vast majority of the bill that is good, sound, and needed law that would never pass currently due to the partisan stigma now attached to it styas on the books. Its ridiculous to suggest our intelligence and survelliance laws should be based off things written in a time where the notion of a PAGER was science fiction, let alone a world where our phones can be as small as a driver's liscense and are so much more powerful then what was available then in giant mainframes that its like comparing a Model T to a 2011 Ferrari.
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GPS_Flex said:
The jerks in power always abuse the laws and even the Constitution itself. Do you propose that we get rid of the Constitution because of incorrect interpretations thereof or would you rather see us throw some of them in jail or out of office at a minimum?

If these senators are privy to abuses of the law, they need to start impeaching whoever is culpable or having them brought before the courts for prosecution rather than whining about it publicly.

Oh, thanks for your 5 seconds of brainless activity.
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I propose we UPHOLD the Constitution and when laws such as the Patriot Act (the name alone gives it away) acts against the rights and liberties of the People that it be struck down in full. I'll take the random chance of terrorists over the guaranteed misuse of power and loss of liberty involved with such government expanding laws as the Patriot Act.
 
Ikari said:
I propose we UPHOLD the Constitution and when laws such as the Patriot Act (the name alone gives it away) acts against the rights and liberties of the People that it be struck down in full. I'll take the random chance of terrorists over the guaranteed misuse of power and loss of liberty involved with such government expanding laws as the Patriot Act.
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You may but it seems most USA citizens would opt for security... or maybe they just don't care about something that has no apparent effect on their lives.

.
 
ecofarm said:
I don't care about the Patriot Act. I suppose I should, but I don't.

Let me know when it actually gets abused, maybe then I'll care.
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Well, that's just it, you won't know because they have the right not to let you know. That is one of the primary problems with it.
 
TOJ said:
You may but it seems most USA citizens would opt for security... or maybe they just don't care about something that has no apparent effect on their lives.

.
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The misuse of power by the government and unchecked expansion of the government always has effects on our lives. The fact is they are under the impression that they can't be affected by it; when that is not true. We already have plenty of reports of misuse of power on this front, and that most likely means there is a lot more going on that we don't know. In the end, terrorism itself actually has less effect on their lives than the gross abuse of power and expansion of the government against our rights and liberties.

Terrorists can do nothing to take away our freedom, that threat is possessed by the government.

"The course of history shows that as a government increases, liberty decreases." - Thomas Jefferson
 
Rightwing86 said:
"This time he extended it without even signing the law himself. As he rested in bed following G8 meetings in France, an automated machine signed the bill with his signature for him."

Lol, kinda sad to read that. An automated machine to sign things into law? We really are lazy as ****.
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Obama voted "Present". :mrgreen:
 
Ikari said:
The misuse of power by the government and unchecked expansion of the government always has effects on our lives. The fact is they are under the impression that they can't be affected by it; when that is not true. We already have plenty of reports of misuse of power on this front, and that most likely means there is a lot more going on that we don't know. In the end, terrorism itself actually has less effect on their lives than the gross abuse of power and expansion of the government against our rights and liberties.

Terrorists can do nothing to take away our freedom, that threat is possessed by the government.

"The course of history shows that as a government increases, liberty decreases." - Thomas Jefferson
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Apparently a lot of your fellow citizens are not as scared of your government as you.

.
 
TOJ said:
Apparently a lot of your fellow citizens are not as scared of your government as you.

.
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They've forgotten the teachings of the Founders and have grown lazy in their duties to keep the Republic. Terrorism has a lot less effect on our daily lives than our government does. Plain and simple.
 
Yukon said:
American democracy died on 9/11 and will not be resurected. You gave up your freedomsm willingly, you get what you deserve. I have no pity for you.
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this is true. its the reason I said that the terrorists have already won. not because of the terrorist attack itself, but because of the action America has taken as a result. America has moved to become a semi-closed dogmatic extremist society that thrives on fear and live by militarism. this was completely unthinkable 15 years ago when America was a beacon of freedom, hope, justice and good society.
 
GPS_Flex said:
The jerks in power always abuse the laws and even the Constitution itself. Do you propose that we get rid of the Constitution because of incorrect interpretations thereof or would you rather see us throw some of them in jail or out of office at a minimum?

If these senators are privy to abuses of the law, they need to start impeaching whoever is culpable or having them brought before the courts for prosecution rather than whining about it publicly.

Oh, thanks for your 5 seconds of brainless activity.
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politicians in America and most other "democracies" are held completely unaccountable. politicians deserve to be jailed, held accountable and brought to justice. not doing this is insanity.
 
TOJ said:
You may but it seems most USA citizens would opt for security... or maybe they just don't care about something that has no apparent effect on their lives.

.
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the problem is that the people have no way to say no. whatever of their two options they vote they get the same. the people in the US simply have no say and no influence over policies.
 
obama was against it before he voted for it..

where have I heard this party line before
 
GPS_Flex said:
Let me clarify by pointing out that not all warrants must go through a FISA Court. The act does address courts with jurisdiction over the offence under investigation. In other words, warrants and subpoenas are still required for the actions you described and the act makes clear that they must be obtained through a “court of competent jurisdiction’.
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The government doesn't need a warrant to ****ing eavesdrop on your telephone conversations or emails... all you have to do is use a word or practically make an international call and it's reason enough
 
GPS_Flex said:
I still have my freedoms so I’m not sure what you are talking about.
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You don't know how free you are until you test the boundaries of your "freedom." Just telling us you are free is naive... do you know the government hasn't listened to your phone calls? Do you know the Patriot Act isn't being grossly abused? Are you actually informed enough to know every time the government has violated your constitutional rights?
 
GPS_Flex said:
If we use your logic, the Constitution of the United States must go too. Maybe you can commit 10 seconds of real thought to the issue and realize that we can’t throw out every law that gets abused by those in power or we would be left with no laws.

The Patriot Act has helped stop a lot of attacks here in the US so its positives are obvious. If you want to scare me into thinking it is being abused, you will need to do more than give me the opinions of a couple of career liars who have political reasons for opposition thereto.

Why don’t you demand that your elected officials follow the letter of the law or get arrested/booted out of office rather than demand that good laws be thrown out due to abuse? Could it be that you support the bastardization of laws when it suits your political objectives?
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The Constitution is never abused... the Constitution is just not followed, violated, or completely ignored in some cases. The Patriot Act doesn't limit government or ensure your liberty. Comparing the Constitution to The Patriot Act is apples to oranges.

Because we care about the Constitution and want to see it followed, we are critical of the Patriot Act. You seem to be arguing that the Constitution is imperfect but it still shouldn't be thrown out, so the Patriot Act shouldn't be thrown out either...
 
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Ikari said:
I propose we UPHOLD the Constitution and when laws such as the Patriot Act (the name alone gives it away) acts against the rights and liberties of the People that it be struck down in full. I'll take the random chance of terrorists over the guaranteed misuse of power and loss of liberty involved with such government expanding laws as the Patriot Act.
Click to expand...

I am not that scared of terrorist anymore... Bin Laden is dead and people will kick their asses if they try to hijack another plane. We have seen it happen since 9/11, and the middle east is more concerned about fixing their own countries now (protesting their regimes) than anything else.
 
Ikari said:
The misuse of power by the government and unchecked expansion of the government always has effects on our lives. The fact is they are under the impression that they can't be affected by it; when that is not true. We already have plenty of reports of misuse of power on this front, and that most likely means there is a lot more going on that we don't know. In the end, terrorism itself actually has less effect on their lives than the gross abuse of power and expansion of the government against our rights and liberties.

Terrorists can do nothing to take away our freedom, that threat is possessed by the government.

"The course of history shows that as a government increases, liberty decreases." - Thomas Jefferson
Click to expand...

I am kind of shocked that people aren't demanding that we know the extent of the Patriot Act and how it affects us... I'd like to know which one of my phone classes and emails they flagged and why. I'd like to know why some of our citizens are put on the terrorist watch list, and do not fly list without explanation or reason and cannot be removed from those lists. I'd like to know what is going on in Gitmo, who is there, and what are those suspects charged with exactly and the extent of the evidence.

Instead people are just shrugging this **** off like it's no big deal, and doesn't impact them. The fact is, the law could actually impact us far greater than we understand or even know, and the law is on going. It won't go away when our fears of another terrorist attack go away. The government will still have the same amount of power.
 
SheWolf said:
The government doesn't need a warrant to ****ing eavesdrop on your telephone conversations or emails... all you have to do is use a word or practically make an international call and it's reason enough
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Care to provide the provision of the Patriot Act which allows for warrantless Eavesdropping of telephone calls and/or emails?
 
TOJ said:
You may but it seems most USA citizens would opt for security... or maybe they just don't care about something that has no apparent effect on their lives.

.
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Its really only ok until you are affected or realize that you now live in a fascist state instead of a free country.

In Europe, we have our own very "patriot act", a law for digital surveilance, basically allowing complete surveilance of communications between people of the state. IP address, telephone numbers, owners of these things, how they connect, who they write emails to. The excuse used? Terrorism..

We have all lost, terrorism is just an excuse the state use to trap everyone that used to live in a free state. Its totalitarian madness, planned at the highest level and it has moved the whole west and other parts of the world away from total freedom into a totalitarin paradise, where most people live as slaves.


http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:105:0054:0063:EN:PDF
 
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Time Lord said:
Care to provide the provision of the Patriot Act which allows for warrantless Eavesdropping of telephone calls and/or emails?
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Read Title II... I seriously can't believe how naive some people are. Scary. The telephone eavesdropping was one of the most discussed provisions of the law.
 
I am not thrilled about this because it has been used for things other than fighting terrorists. Like local corruption, and it has some provisions that allow for some people who have nothing to do with terror, to be held with no rights as if they were in GITMO.
 
Councilman said:
I am not thrilled about this because it has been used for things other than fighting terrorists. Like local corruption, and it has some provisions that allow for some people who have nothing to do with terror, to be held with no rights as if they were in GITMO.
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you know that terrorism doesnt exist as described right? terrorism is just used as an excuse to take away freedoms. Fear is the most powerful of tools to fool the population into these kind of changes. If terrorism comes from the state or from real terrorists does no longer matter, everyone has already lost, not because of terrorist acts but because of western governments reactions and how our society has changed.

Its interesting about Tom Sawyer how he could make people enjoy doing what they did not want to do.
 
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