African Genesis Discussion

I wanted to see if anyone else read this remarkable book: African Genesis by Robert Ardrey. He basically spells out why humans behave the way we do, and he completely destroyed Rosseau's philosophy of early man living in harmony with nature (and in so doing discredited Marx and communism). For those that didnt read his book, here is a summary:

Evolution from teeth and fur to tool use- early hominids came from a forest dwelling, apelike creature. When the forests retreated over time, two distinct species emerged, one who continued to live in the forest eating veggies- becoming gorillas, and the ones who were forced onto the plains, where they had to survive by eating meat- this led to having less emphasis on fangs in their teeth, because of using tools to hunt and eat with. We are the descendants of this meat eating, tool using hominid.


But it doesn't stop there. Ardrey argues that we have built-in instincts that enabled us to survive. Two in particular stand out and are relevant in everything we do today.


1. Pecking order- almost all social animals have this. You have alpha males (or queens in some species like hyenas, ants, bees, and termites) being dominant (they get the pick of the females, or all of them- for mating), and this in a way is reflected in human society as well, from school (cool kids, bullies, outcasts, and loners) all the way into adulthood (leaders, lowly workers, etc).


2. Battles over territory- animals within their own species have a defined area which they lord over. This is reflected in human beings owning property, all the way to exact borders of countries. Animals battle over their territories, and humans also. Modern nation states are a natural evolution of this territorial instinct.

So, fire away!

School Shootings: a Revolt Against The Pecking Order?

With the recent spate of school shootings, everybody is asking why- what motivates these kids to go on killing rampages? Thinking about this subject brought me back to Ardrey's book and his observations in the animal kingdom, specifically in relation to pecking orders.

Of course, mental illness and prescription drugs definitely plays a role, which perhaps gives a reason why these would-be killers went past the point of no return, but it seems to me it all starts from the social side of things.

All social animals have pecking orders: alpha males, beta males, outcasts, etc. Same species fight with each other for group dominance all the time, you see this in many higher order animals: from lions, chimps, gorillas, wolves, etc. the prize ends up having the opportunity to pass one's seed into future generations- the strong rules over the weak. Its part of an evolutionary development that ensures survival of the species.

Let us move this pecking order concept into schools, because kids, even at an early age gravitates towards the stronger ones. Bigger kids over smaller kids, aggressive over passive. Bullies dominate because they want to be on top of this pecking order.

In high school the pecking order becomes acute: students end up divided into cliques. You have the cool "in crowd" kids, the jocks, the nobodies, the loners, the bullied, etc. To many, the ultimate achievement in high school is to be one of these cool kids, while the others get labeled as "losers."

So could this be why school shooters are motivated to do what they do? Are they revolting against the pecking order using the only means at their disposal? To take revenge on those who they felt were persecuting them for not falling into line with the pecking order?

PoS said:

I wanted to see if anyone else read this remarkable book:

So, fire away!

Click to expand...

Sounds like an interesting book, PoS.

Thing is, there has always been that class structure, or pecking order, in schools, but mass murder by students, not so much. So I'm not sure these factors are contributing to anything today.

But another thing that might is the pack mentality we are born with. Social structure implies being social, and I would suggest that despite all the "social" media engagement we see today, we are far less truly social than we have been in the past. Also, we are seeing massive levels of social division in North America, and especially in the states, where these shooting numbers appear to be rising.

I think we are really struggling to adapt to these changes, and this is coming out in all kinds of ways. One of the biggest indicators is the levels of mental illness we are seeing in our populations, especially in our urban centers. We aren't built to sustain this level of stress for too long, and we're crumbling under the weight.

Now...trying to correlate any of this to school shootings is tough, because despite the increasing number of incidents, and the massive amount of publicity they get, they are still statistically outliers - like way way out there outliers. But tied into the umbrella of mental illness, one could definitely make a case that our current environment is way out of line with our instincts and "ideal" environment, so...ya, I give you a nod on this one, if not for the instinctual traits you listed, certainly for the idea a lot of problems are happening on the instinctual level.

OlNate said:

Sounds like an interesting book, PoS.

Thing is, there has always been that class structure, or pecking order, in schools, but mass murder by students, not so much. So I'm not sure these factors are contributing to anything today.

But another thing that might is the pack mentality we are born with. Social structure implies being social, and I would suggest that despite all the "social" media engagement we see today, we are far less truly social than we have been in the past. Also, we are seeing massive levels of social division in North America, and especially in the states, where these shooting numbers appear to be rising.

I think we are really struggling to adapt to these changes, and this is coming out in all kinds of ways. One of the biggest indicators is the levels of mental illness we are seeing in our populations, especially in our urban centers. We aren't built to sustain this level of stress for too long, and we're crumbling under the weight.

Now...trying to correlate any of this to school shootings is tough, because despite the increasing number of incidents, and the massive amount of publicity they get, they are still statistically outliers - like way way out there outliers. But tied into the umbrella of mental illness, one could definitely make a case that our current environment is way out of line with our instincts and "ideal" environment, so...ya, I give you a nod on this one, if not for the instinctual traits you listed, certainly for the idea a lot of problems are happening on the instinctual level.

Click to expand...

Good points, and I pretty much agree with them. Now Im not saying this pecking order is the end all when it comes to reasons behind these rampages, Im simply saying it may play a role in it.

There are a lot of factors to consider when it comes to social stratification, especially among children- but it seems to me pretty much all of these school shooters were in some way outcasts from the pecking order- they never got the privileges of being respected in high school like the cool kids, and they decided to kill as a way to seek revenge, whether its out of jealousy or anger at what they couldnt have or because they were insulted or bullied.

And of course, bullying and being cool among kids happens in every country, not just in the US, so you have that factor, along with cultural attitudes to consider too.

Yes, school shootings are outliers, and America is safer than it has been since 20-30 years ago. Right now I'm just speculating on the motives as to why these kids decide to go into the deep end.

PoS said:

Good points, and I pretty much agree with them. Now Im not saying this pecking order is the end all when it comes to reasons behind these rampages, Im simply saying it may play a role in it.

There are a lot of factors to consider when it comes to social stratification, especially among children- but it seems to me pretty much all of these school shooters were in some way outcasts from the pecking order- they never got the privileges of being respected in high school like the cool kids, and they decided to kill as a way to seek revenge, whether its out of jealousy or anger at what they couldnt have or because they were insulted or bullied.

And of course, bullying and being cool among kids happens in every country, not just in the US, so you have that factor, along with cultural attitudes to consider too.

Yes, school shootings are outliers, and America is safer than it has been since 20-30 years ago. Right now I'm just speculating on the motives as to why these kids decide to go into the deep end.

Click to expand...

I feel like maybe we're both right. While the pecking order has already been there, perhaps the isolation has resulted in a people being dehumanized in the eyes of the shooter. Therefore when confronted with the unhappy realization that one is at the bottom of that pecking order, the voice in our heads that says we cannot hurt "the pack" is shut off, because the connection to "the pack" is much weaker.

Perhaps on some level these outcasts believe that they have been let down by the pack, due to their place in the pecking order, that some inner truth has not been satisfied, that some natural wrong has been inflicted against them that they can no longer operate within the pack...but since the pack is all around them it serves as a constant reminder of their isolation. Disenfranchised and dehumanized, they strike out in what is perhaps our most primal instinct: violence.

I have always had a share of sympathy for these kids...despite the pain they have caused, despite the fact that their behavior cannot be excused, something I think even they realize, as so many of these end in the shooter's death, either self inflicted, or "suicide by police". The level of pain that would result in that behavior has to be bottomless.

Wow...also, pretty sure this is my 5000th post here. Quite the heavy for the milestone...lolz... I think I need a drink.

OlNate said:

I feel like maybe we're both right. While the pecking order has already been there, perhaps the isolation has resulted in a people being dehumanized in the eyes of the shooter. Therefore when confronted with the unhappy realization that one is at the bottom of that pecking order, the voice in our heads that says we cannot hurt "the pack" is shut off, because the connection to "the pack" is much weaker.

Perhaps on some level these outcasts believe that they have been let down by the pack, due to their place in the pecking order, that some inner truth has not been satisfied, that some natural wrong has been inflicted against them that they can no longer operate within the pack...but since the pack is all around them it serves as a constant reminder of their isolation. Disenfranchised and dehumanized, they strike out in what is perhaps our most primal instinct: violence.

I have always had a share of sympathy for these kids...despite the pain they have caused, despite the fact that their behavior cannot be excused, something I think even they realize, as so many of these end in the shooter's death, either self inflicted, or "suicide by police". The level of pain that would result in that behavior has to be bottomless.

Wow...also, pretty sure this is my 5000th post here. Quite the heavy for the milestone...lolz... I think I need a drink.

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Congrats, and a very good post. Sure beats the wasting it on political inanities in the other threads, eh?

I think we have come to a consensus here. These disenfranchised kids are striking out against the pack as a whole because they perceive persecution. They want to belong to a better level but the social structure demands they be at the bottom. Rather than play the game, they seek to break it instead.

Also, I feel there is a conflicting dichotomy here- you have society telling everyone that they are equal- though in reality it isnt true. Civilization's laws protect the weak from being preyed upon by the strong, but when it comes to our inborn instincts, we still seek to dominate those lesser than us- if not by violence, then through other means.

Civilization teaches us to be courteous and kind to others- ethics is the foundation in this, but the animal inside tells us we must strive to be better individually, whether its through having more territory (property ownership) or with power (monetary and/or political).

Interesting stuff.

I am looking forward to following this discussion. If the first posts are any indication, it should be a respectful and interesting one.

PoS said:

Congrats, and a very good post. Sure beats the wasting it on political inanities in the other threads, eh?

I think we have come to a consensus here. These disenfranchised kids are striking out against the pack as a whole because they perceive persecution. They want to belong to a better level but the social structure demands they be at the bottom. Rather than play the game, they seek to break it instead.

Also, I feel there is a conflicting dichotomy here- you have society telling everyone that they are equal- though in reality it isnt true. Civilization's laws protect the weak from being preyed upon by the strong, but when it comes to our inborn instincts, we still seek to dominate those lesser than us- if not by violence, then through other means.

Civilization teaches us to be courteous and kind to others- ethics is the foundation in this, but the animal inside tells us we must strive to be better individually, whether its through having more territory (property ownership) or with power (monetary and/or political).

Interesting stuff.

Click to expand...

Hmm.. I wonder if maybe you're looking at one aspect of the pack mentality and giving it a lot of weight, while maybe not giving as much weight to the rest. Being part of a pack isn't only about establishing dominance...I think that's only a logistical necessity. Rather, the point of the pack is to provide safety in numbers: to not be alone. In the animal kingdom we see both competition, which often resembles cruelty, but also care, concern, mourning, compassion.

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/c...ld-Wolves-feelings-love-compassion-mourn-book

Studies are also questioning the traditional understanding of how hierarchy is established.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-everything-you-know-about-wolf-packs-is-wrong-502754629

The one thing that seems to be true for pack oriented behaviour is that there is strong leadership, and constant reinforcement of belonging (which essentially following rules and societal norms is the most fundamental indicator of) within the pack. As we disconnect further and further, and see our "packs" more and more divided, I think it puts stress on all of us - again, pointing to the massive uptick in mental health statistics we see in North America - and those of us that are at risk, but perhaps would otherwise be pulled back by the sense of belonging found in and reinforced by community, fall through the cracks and go on to commit atrocities in an attempt to deal with the total disconnection they feel from the pack they instinctively feel they should belong to. One could easily look at the way kids are raised today, in a climate where most households see both parents, or single parents, work longer and longer hours to make ends meet, or live up to modern day corporate expectations, and have less meaningful reinforcement time with their children, and, when they compare that to times when there was perhaps less of the kind of antisocial behaviour we see today, see that this is where our problems start. From there it goes on to a social structure where people interact through screens rather than true person to person exchange.

What we end up with are "lone wolves". In nature, a wolf that lives on it's own, by necessity, tends to be more aggressive and dangerous than the average wolf. ( Mech L.D., Adams L.G., Meier T.J., Burch J.W., Dale B.W. (1998) The Wolves of Denali. University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis is cited by wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_wolf_(trait) ) This, of course, makes sense. Without the advantages of being part of the pack, the wolf must adapt. But what happens when you combine this natural tendency with pre-existing or post traumatic mental illness? Well, lots of things, I'm sure, but among them it would appear that shooting up schools is a possible outcome.

So, I guess I'm unclear on whether the competitive nature of pack species is to blame, or if it is the dissolution of community, ake the pack itself, that is at the heart of it. Perhaps that's why you see so many people flocking to tribalism, despite being intelligent people who should know better than to throw their lot in with populist fluffery. Perhaps we're all so desperate to connect with something that we'd work against our best interests just to feel like we belong...such is the power of instinct.

OlNate said:

Hmm.. I wonder if maybe you're looking at one aspect of the pack mentality and giving it a lot of weight, while maybe not giving as much weight to the rest. Being part of a pack isn't only about establishing dominance...I think that's only a logistical necessity. Rather, the point of the pack is to provide safety in numbers: to not be alone. In the animal kingdom we see both competition, which often resembles cruelty, but also care, concern, mourning, compassion.

Click to expand...

Youre absolutely right, I was being overly focused on the hierarchical aspects of the social strata and your stuff is totally spot on. :thumbs:

What we've come to notice is that while there are many who dont mind being led, nobody wants to be at the bottom or even left out of the group, so to speak. The ones who stick out like a sore thumb tend to get hammered back down like an exposed nail by the rest of the group. In high school if youre a nobody or an outcast then people ignore you at the very least, or in the worst of cases- gang up against you.

The use of mass violence therefore is a form of rebellion against the group structure itself- the outcast/rebel feels he gains a sort of temporary power over the ones who he felt persecuted/humiliated/bullied/angered/offended him.