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The Founding Fathers Wanted Moses on U.S. Seal

bhkad

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The Founding Fathers Wanted Moses on U.S. Seal

The Great Seal of the United States of America

On July 4, 1776 the Continental Congress set a committee to work to design a national seal. The task was a monumental one since the feeling was that it reflected the Founding Fathers' beliefs, values and sovereignty of the new Nation. Original designs varied widely. Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson proposed a design representing Moses crossing the Red Sea, with Pharaoh in hot pursuit. It included the motto: 'Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God'.

USSSP: Great Seal and National Mottos of the U.S.A.

Anyone who doesn't think this indicates the intentions and wishes of the Founding Fathers that our U.S. government should be consistent with Biblical scriptures is living in denial!
 
The Founding Fathers Wanted Moses on U.S. Seal



USSSP: Great Seal and National Mottos of the U.S.A.

Anyone who doesn't think this indicates the intentions and wishes of the Founding Fathers that our U.S. government should be consistent with Biblical scriptures is living in denial!

No offense intended to the "scouts" but I would not be considering them a news source. Secondly; if they had wanted in on the seal, no doubt it would be there. Since it isn't I'm gonna think they thought better of the idea. Not all ideas are indicative of a desire for a particular outcome.
 
The Founding Fathers Wanted Moses on U.S. Seal

USSSP: Great Seal and National Mottos of the U.S.A.

Anyone who doesn't think this indicates the intentions and wishes of the Founding Fathers that our U.S. government should be consistent with Biblical scriptures is living in denial!

Interesting. By what majority vote was the symbol indicating the intentions and wishes of the Founding Fathers that our U.S. government should be consistent with Biblical scriptures adopted?
 
The Founding Fathers Wanted Moses on U.S. Seal



USSSP: Great Seal and National Mottos of the U.S.A.

Anyone who doesn't think this indicates the intentions and wishes of the Founding Fathers that our U.S. government should be consistent with Biblical scriptures is living in denial!

The FF made many more statements concerning the dangers of religion in government than they made in favor of it. They were educated men and they were very aware of the history of Europe and how religion had kept the people of that part of the world in bondage.
No way does this one article make me believe otherwise.
So call me an egyptian cause I am living in de Nile....
 
The Founding Fathers Wanted Moses on U.S. Seal



USSSP: Great Seal and National Mottos of the U.S.A.

Anyone who doesn't think this indicates the intentions and wishes of the Founding Fathers that our U.S. government should be consistent with Biblical scriptures is living in denial!
Ok, who's interpretation of the bible will you use? Mormons? Baptist? Jehovah's witness? methodist? catholic? amish?
When you bible thumpers can figure out just who's interpretation is authentic and everyone else's is rubbish then perhaps you can start preaching of using your fundamentalism as law of the land.
Finally if the founding fathers wanted to base law off of the bible, why didn't they just write exactly so in the constitution?

And seriously, the boy scouts as a source? Why don't you just post the mormon main website instead?
 
The Founding Fathers Wanted Moses on U.S. Seal



USSSP: Great Seal and National Mottos of the U.S.A.

Anyone who doesn't think this indicates the intentions and wishes of the Founding Fathers that our U.S. government should be consistent with Biblical scriptures is living in denial!

I looked in the Bible for the story of Hercules so I could verify that your idea was valid, but no luck. Turns out several mythical allegories were proposed by the Fathers:

John Adams chose the allegorical painting known as the "Judgment of Hercules" where the young Hercules must choose to travel either on the flowery path of self-indulgence or ascend the rugged, uphill way of duty to others and honor to himself.

First Committee's Design for the Great Seal - 1776
 
Here it is.

and here's a link to the Library of Congress' website.

Warning: they are a bunch of wickedly partisan religious fundamentalists over there, be very wary of all of the Christo-fascist propaganda if you decide to visit.
 

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Here it is.

and here's a link to the Library of Congress' website.

Warning: they are a bunch of wickedly partisan religious fundamentalists over there, be very wary of all of the Christo-fascist propaganda if you decide to visit.
What about the link? Care to state what your argument concludes after posting such a link?
 
What about the link? Care to state what your argument concludes after posting such a link?



Oh sorry,

My argument is that this link proves that we as a people should execute all homosexuals, atheists, non-Christians, liberals and Democrats at dawn for being Un-American.


What did you think it meant?
 
Oh sorry,

My argument is that this link proves that we as a people should execute all homosexuals, atheists, non-Christians, liberals and Democrats at dawn for being Un-American.


What did you think it meant?
As that is the argument you are making regardless of sarcasm or not. Then you are full of sht; the link proves nothing of the sort.
 
Jefferson was a strong believer in the separation of church and state. In 1786, the Virginia General Assembly passed Jefferson’s “Bill for Religious Freedom.” The law stated,

“No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.“

Seperation of chruch and state protects our freedom to practice our religion or freedom to not practice religion. It is crystal clear.Read the constitution.
 
Actually, its not clear. espicially through reading the constitution. That is part of the issue with this.

The constitution sets forth that the state will not create a State Religion, IE a religion mandated that all citizens must belong to ALA the church of england. It establishes that everyone is free to practice religion as they choose.

NO WHERE does it state "Separation of Church and State".

The key that is lost so often today is coercion. Seeing something, or hearing something, is in no way...shape...or form causing you to have to believe, follow, or worship.

IE...teachers in schools not allowing their students to mention god, or religion, is the STATE infringing upon the rights of citizens to express their religion.

IE...bans upon stores or people putting up religious articles during holiday seasons is an infringing upon the rights of the citizens to express their religion.

There are as many scholars that speak that this "separation" was intended to keep the state out of the church just as much as the church out of the state.

It also doesn't flatly mean that somehow government must be atheist. Indeed, people that demand that elected officials shouldn't vote based upon their belief are, in effect, infringing upon their rights as an American to express their religion. They were voted into office (or appointed by law) and are thus free to use whatever judgment to make their choices...using religious values is no more or less constitutional than an atheist using their own morality to judge what they vote for. Its if they try to instill the actual religion as something mandated by the government that trouble comes in.

Or, put more simply.

A Christian, voted into office, voting for a gay marriage ban because he believes being gay is a sin is not unconstitutional. Indeed, its his right by the constitution to express his religious belief through his voting as an elected official.

However he could not put in a law stating that homosexuals must go to confessional at a catholic church every week to confess their sins, or they'll be subject to criminal penalties, as it is forcing people into a religion...which is unconstitutional.

An atheist could vote for stem cell research on the stem cell of cloned fetuses, because he see's it from a purely scientific aspect and does not believe that fetuses have a "Soul"...and its fully within his right, as while it disagrees with what a religion may say, its not infringing in their ability to practice or perform it (IE, its not forcing a Christian to go out, make the clone, do the research, etc).

An atheist could however not get a law passed banning the meeting of a baptist Sunday school group in a public location, as it would be having the state infringe upon a religions right to worship.

Over the years there has been FAR to much read into this "separation" and it has been used to actually do the very thing the first amendment is supposed to be protecting.

The FF made many more statements concerning the dangers of religion in government than they made in favor of it. They were educated men and they were very aware of the history of Europe and how religion had kept the people of that part of the world in bondage.

Indeed. And the way in which it kept them in bondage was when the state mandated that everyone having to join, support, pray to, and attend a specific state religion.
 
It is probably not helpful to paint these historic personages in the colors of religious or political ideology. Most of our so-called “founding fathers” - when viewed candidly - were colorful enough characters without our adding varnish to them. Franklin, who is considered to be the “First American” came close to forsaking hearth and home for England. Even Jefferson, with all his slaves (he owned over 600 during his lifetime), was hardly the liberal reformer we would have him be; and despite the efforts of modern-day Christians to convert him, the truth is that he was a deist, who had no qualms about revising the Bible to suit himself. See The Jefferson Bible: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (1820). The “times that try men’s souls” bring out firebrands like Paine; who, if he was not a founding father, was certainly the midwife of American independence, and abetter to the overthrow of the French monarchy as well. Like Jesus, we would not be able to stand him. (Indeed, Paine was such a pain in the arse that he managed to make himself persona non grata in England, America and France!) Our perception of these characters is clouded by the dark glass of history, and distorted by attributions that represent so much wishful (rather than critical) thinking. It is like crediting Rembrandt’s paintings with depth of hue when their darkness is due to his using cheap paint.
 
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What about the LOC? You're argument is preposterous and says nothing in support of your position - whatever that is.

My Argument: Both Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson wanted the original seal of The United States to involve the story of Exodus and Pharaoh's army drowning in the Red Sea. They also wanted to add a pillar of fire in the clouds to represent the presence of the Divine.
Ben Franklin's suggestion said:
"Pharaoh sitting in an open chariot, a crown on his head and a sword in his hand passing through the Red Sea in pursuit of the Israelites: rays from a pillar of fire in the cloud, expression of the divine presence... Moses stands on the shore and extending his hand over the sea, causes it to overwhelm Pharaoh. Motto: Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

Thomas Jefferson's proposal after some persuasion by Ben Franklin said:
"Moses standing on the Shore, and extending his Hand over the Sea, thereby causing the same to overwhelm Pharaoh who is sitting in an open Chariot, a Crown on his Head and a Sword in his Hand. Rays from a Pillar of Fire in the Clouds reaching to Moses, to express that he acts by Command of the Deity....
Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God."

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

you lose.
 

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Benjamin Franklin though that the turkey (not the bald eagle) should have been put on the Great Seal adopted by the Congress. No doubt, Franklin was right: the turkey is much more representative of the character of the American people.
 
My Argument: Both Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson wanted the original seal of The United States to involve the story of Exodus and Pharaoh's army drowning in the Red Sea. They also wanted to add a pillar of fire in the clouds to represent the presence of the Divine.




http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

you lose.
Now that you've finally presented what your argument is - so what?
No one is arguing that fact. What are you trying to conclude from it?
Actually no, I don't lose because a) I never said that wasn't true and B) what eventually became of the US seal was no moses no depiction of any religious elements. Regardless of what the original drafts were - and there were many - the only matter of relevance is what the final form of the seal was; more importantly the debate and argument that led to this final design. Why don't you bring up all the other various design drafts that were also considered at the time? Such as this one
2CommPreliminary.jpg

Or this one
2CommObverse.jpg

Or
BartonColorObv.jpg
1CommLossing.jpg

Sorry; you can resurrect this all you want but - you lost.
The Great Seal of the United States: USA.gov
us-seal.jpg

You're desperate to attempt to construct a fallacious argument that somehow because of religious references by the founding father's that it was their intent on constructing a religious - more specifically - christian nation. Yet you fail to notice that religious freedom is one of the very basic cornerstones of this nation which the founding father's were adamant about as you can find from various quote by both Jefferson (wall of separation between church and state) and Franklin. If indeed this is a christian nation than there can not be any religious freedom at all.
 
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Now that you've finally presented what your argument is - so what?
No one is arguing that fact. What are you trying to conclude from it?
Actually no, I don't lose because a) I never said that wasn't true and B) what eventually became of the US seal was no moses no depiction of any religious elements. Regardless of what the original drafts were - and there were many - the only matter of relevance is what the final form of the seal was; more importantly the debate and argument that led to this final design. Why don't you bring up all the other various design drafts that were also considered at the time? Such as this one
2CommPreliminary.jpg

Or this one
2CommObverse.jpg

Or
BartonColorObv.jpg
1CommLossing.jpg

Sorry; you can resurrect this all you want but - you lost.
The Great Seal of the United States: USA.gov
us-seal.jpg

You're desperate to attempt to construct a fallacious argument that somehow because of religious references by the founding father's that it was their intent on constructing a religious - more specifically - christian nation. Yet you fail to notice that religious freedom is one of the very basic cornerstones of this nation which the founding father's were adamant about as you can find from various quote by both Jefferson (wall of separation between church and state) and Franklin. If indeed this is a christian nation than there can not be any religious freedom at all.

Because Gay rights weren't included in the Constitution shouldn't that mean we should exclude them from American life, too?

I mean Gays existed in 1776. They weren't included in the Constitution. Neither were Blacks.

If we are to be a Godless society why shouldn't we also remain a white, straight society as well?
 
Because Gay rights weren't included in the Constitution shouldn't that mean we should exclude them from American life, too?

I mean Gays existed in 1776. They weren't included in the Constitution. Neither were Blacks.

If we are to be a Godless society why shouldn't we also remain a white, straight society as well?
The typical play on words by you conservatives. Again attempting to interject your own perverted religious fanaticism into the law.
As I've asked, you love your christian orthodoxy in the law so that this is a christian nation yet you fail to realize that that goes against what is already in the constitution - if we are a christian nation then what of all the other religions? You love to assume that freedom of religion only applies to your own christian faith.
Separation of church and state was the very reason why the pilgrims left the British empire, you guys just want to resurrect this same perverted theocratic rule.
 
The typical play on words by you conservatives. Again attempting to interject your own perverted religious fanaticism into the law.
As I've asked, you love your christian orthodoxy in the law so that this is a christian nation yet you fail to realize that that goes against what is already in the constitution - if we are a christian nation then what of all the other religions? You love to assume that freedom of religion only applies to your own christian faith.
Separation of church and state was the very reason why the pilgrims left the British empire, you guys just want to resurrect this same perverted theocratic rule.

Like I said, that means we should leave out Gay rights and racial equality, wouldn't you agree?
 
Like I said, that means we should leave out Gay rights and racial equality, wouldn't you agree?
Sure; don't forget to add women to that list as well. Only that you forget the fact of all citizens being equal under the law.
You also forget the fact that the constitution already has a say in religion and government and it states Religious freedom.
 
B) what eventually became of the US seal was no moses no depiction of any religious elements. Regardless of what the original drafts were - and there were many - the only matter of relevance is what the final form of the seal was; more importantly the debate and argument that led to this final design.

Does the seal have the reverse side? Yes or no?

What are the pictures and the meanings of the reverse side you have been conveniently ignoring?
 
Does the seal have the reverse side? Yes or no?

What are the pictures and the meanings of the reverse side you have been conveniently ignoring?
What about the reverse side - care to show what the reverse side is today? Want a hint? Here it is.
USA_Great_Seal_Reverse.png

Moses? That's a pyramid with the all seeing eye? Should we now all convert to paganism??
Oh my bad "novus ordo seclorum"; "new secular order" "new order of the ages" whichever you have it.

Don't be stupid.
 
The Constitution is a product of the Enlightenment, ergo, it comes as no surprise that our most famous and beloved statue is NOT Moses with the Law of a Hebrew tribal deity, but the Statue of Liberty, a woman and thus in contradiction to the patriarchal Judeo-Xtian Islamic religions. It is NOT the Bible or Ten Commandments she is holding, but it says "July 4th ,1776."


statue-of-liberty-address.jpg


Oh, and BTW "E PLURIBUS UNUM!"
 
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