• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Another Hot Anti-Trump Story Gets Walked Back

They pleaded guilty to LYING to Congress.

You can keep your opinion of my post to yourself.

I don't see why you think my opinion is invalid, while asserting your own, obviously uninformed opinion.

We have, today, a whistleblower explaining that Flynn was eager to tear up Russian sanctions to free up money for a nuclear deal in the Middle East, which would serve as a pretext for a new US military presence, while President Trump was lying during his inauguration address by claiming that every decision he made would be based on what's best for American families.
 
They pleaded guilty to LYING to Congress.

You can keep your opinion of my post to yourself.

Flynn and Papadopolous pleaded guilty to lying to congress?

Oh, dear. Someone hasn't been paying very close attention.
 
I don't see why you think my opinion is invalid, while asserting your own, obviously uninformed opinion.

We have, today, a whistleblower explaining that Flynn was eager to tear up Russian sanctions to free up money for a nuclear deal in the Middle East, which would serve as a pretext for a new US military presence, while President Trump was lying during his inauguration address by claiming that every decision he made would be based on what's best for American families.

An unnamed source no doubt.
 
Your ignorant argument is based solely on what narrative you find most desirable. Do you find that suspicious?

This whole thing is political vapour-ware.
They're gonna f-up a bunch of peoples' lives...because Hillary-Billary didn't win.
Its a good thing the west is so PC-soaked now that whiners can make themselves out as the heroes.
Not to long ago, when common sense was a little more important, such whining would have been laughed off as sour grapes and immaturity.
Today its normal to cry about anything Trump. Literally cry.
Its f-in' nutz man...
So today he makes his great Jerusalem announcement...LOL!
More crying. Its embarrassing.
 
This whole thing is political vapour-ware.
They're gonna f-up a bunch of peoples' lives...because Hillary-Billary didn't win.
Its a good thing the west is so PC-soaked now that whiners can make themselves out as the heroes.
Not to long ago, when common sense was a little more important, such whining would have been laughed off as sour grapes and immaturity.
Today its normal to cry about anything Trump. Literally cry.
Its f-in' nutz man...
So today he makes his great Jerusalem announcement...LOL!
More crying. Its embarrassing.

There's no "vapour-ware", Flynn and Papadopolous' guilty pleas are proof of that. Flynn getting fired was proof of that. The dozen or so of President Trump's advisors who had contacts with Russians and then lied about them across more than 50 distinct communications, that's no mere vapor.

Meanwhile, President Trump is slurring speech like he's advancing into the next stage of dementia, humiliating the US while his handwriting changes dramatically. We have Flynn bragging via text about a nuclear deal that they'll fund by tearing up Russian sanctions. The writing on the wall is pretty clear and obvious.
 
Well, the troops' faces anyway. Maybe Trump can burn a few Qur'ans as the embassy moves to sweeten the mistake.
O the hubris of those brave, brave ****ers at Trumpco who're willing to risk other Americans' lives.

Trumpco et al know that the ME is actually very simple.
It's just that none of those other guys tried to handle the ME the Trumpco way. They got it all wrong.
Trumpco knows just how those guys screwed up.
Trumpco'll get in there and get it all sorted straight away.
It might be messy at first.
But hey, Democracy's messy, right?
 
We had Brian Ross' hot scoop that candidate Trump told Flynn to contact the Russians, which fizzled.
Fizzled because Ross got the date wrong?
Or what exactly was that correction?
Maybe.
If Trumpco had the regular level of political acumen, I'd expect there to be some technically correct explanation for the differing accounts.
Like Trumpco received confirmation about the lack of subpoenas prior to the issuing of subpoenas.
That's the kind of thing we've all grown accustomed to politicians doing—being technically correct.
But Trumpco has been willing to make bald-faced lies in public like the lies about the various crowds for rallies and inauguration.
So we're in an arena where out-and-out lies are a real possibility rather than just technically correct "not-lies".

At least the NYT admits mistakes and issues corrections.
Can't say the same about Trumpco.

What is bringing all this to white hot intensity is the fact that Trump is on the verge of succeeding bigly. If they can't take him down before the economy gets really good then they will have lost for good in the same way they lost to Reagan. That's Victor David Hanson's theory [video link, long], anyway.
That's quite the theory.
imho, we should rule out the more obvious one first before we go subscribing to conspiracies—Ockham's razor and all.
The more obvious one being that Trumpco actually are crooks who're being busted for various crimes like literal conspiracy against the USA.

After we rule that out, I'd be more willing to entertain the idea of a "vast left-wing conspiracy".
I'll right there with after that.

Keep my beer cold for me in he meantime.
 
We had Brian Ross' hot scoop that candidate Trump told Flynn to contact the Russians, which fizzled.

Now a New York Times scoop is getting the same treatment. Again on the Russia story.

These guys want the Russia collusion story to be true sooooo baaaaad that they keep getting ahead of themselves. They keep trying to turn speculation and innuendo into facts.

What is bringing all this to white hot intensity is the fact that Trump is on the verge of succeeding bigly. If they can't take him down before the economy gets really good then they will have lost for good in the same way they lost to Reagan. That's Victor David Hanson's theory [video link, long], anyway.

We can give them points for trying though, because when know that even if he pulls out ahead and shows them all that he can actually make America great again. They are just going to deny that it actually happened in the first place.

Par for the course I guess.
 
The sooner those that have come to believe the scam that is the "Russia Collusion Investigation", the sooner their credibility will return. [best case]

I have no problem with legitimate hate for Trump, but that investigation was just nothing but a **** show to begin with.
 
We had Brian Ross' hot scoop that candidate Trump told Flynn to contact the Russians, which fizzled.

Now a New York Times scoop is getting the same treatment. Again on the Russia story.

These guys want the Russia collusion story to be true sooooo baaaaad that they keep getting ahead of themselves. They keep trying to turn speculation and innuendo into facts.

What is bringing all this to white hot intensity is the fact that Trump is on the verge of succeeding bigly. If they can't take him down before the economy gets really good then they will have lost for good in the same way they lost to Reagan. That's Victor David Hanson's theory [video link, long], anyway.

Who on the transition team did tell Flynn to call then? Was it Jared? Or maybe Pence? What we know is that Flynn did not do it on his own and the idea that Trump did not know is pretty far fetched too. Trump does not work that way.
 
I have no problem with legitimate hate for Trump, but that investigation was just nothing but a **** show to begin with.

Like I said, many on the Left and Right have bought into the lie and can't back out.
 
There's no "vapour-ware", Flynn and Papadopolous' guilty pleas are proof of that. Flynn getting fired was proof of that. The dozen or so of President Trump's advisors who had contacts with Russians and then lied about them across more than 50 distinct communications, that's no mere vapor.

Meanwhile, President Trump is slurring speech like he's advancing into the next stage of dementia, humiliating the US while his handwriting changes dramatically. We have Flynn bragging via text about a nuclear deal that they'll fund by tearing up Russian sanctions. The writing on the wall is pretty clear and obvious.

And yet...nothing.
Trump is your POTUS. The writing on the wall is someone's sister's phone number.
 
O the hubris of those brave, brave ****ers at Trumpco who're willing to risk other Americans' lives.

Trumpco et al know that the ME is actually very simple.
It's just that none of those other guys tried to handle the ME the Trumpco way. They got it all wrong.
Trumpco knows just how those guys screwed up.
Trumpco'll get in there and get it all sorted straight away.
It might be messy at first.
But hey, Democracy's messy, right?

The whole thing is actually simpler than people think, it's just not going to be and never was going to be neat. We are just too stupid to see it. Conservatives argued it wrong as they supported Bush no matter what, while Liberals criticized no matter what. Those Bush arguments led people away from the problem and into talking points like "WMD" or "Democracy" for the simple sake of democracy. Like I argued even back then on this site, this was never just about Iraq.

Then comes the Arab Spring, where Obama refused to get off the fence even as millions of Muslims across the region protested for socioeconomic justice, dignity, and democracy. He only began to turn when Mubarak got ousted; and even then, he was careful not to upset the autocracies that may keep the balance on their side. Along comes Egypt's first democratic election and their crappy choice is either Mubarak's former Prime Minister (Shafik) or a representative of the Muslim Brotherhood (Morsi). Perhaps Americans can sympathize with that choice after last year (Trump Vs. Clinton). Morsie narrowly wins and American Conservatives and Liberals argue that this (added to Iran's Revolution) is proof that democracy in the ME will only lead to Islamism. Yet, inside a year, as Morsi began introducing Islamism into the government, Egyptians went right back to the street to protest until the Army deposed and ran another election.

Our foreign policy has been wrong headed. The region is struggling through a philosophical argument between Islamic Modernists (Arab Spring) and Islamists (Al-Qaeda, IS, Boko Haram). They have been struggling since the late nineteenth century and throughout the twentieth century, Islamists became more and more desperate against their dictators and against how the world had developed, until they began adopting militant tactics, assassinations, and terror. As much as people want "the terrorists" to be about them in their little homes in New York or Idaho, this is a local issue. And it is one that could have been sorted out long ago, before the Islamist mood turned entirely sour and began lashing out, had we recognized throughout the Cold War what was actually going on. Understanding this in the 1990s, alone, would have been enough to make 9/11 non-existent.

But Trump? He's just a moron. This Jerusalem move is as stupidly off-the-cuff as his Tweets. General Mattis' job just got intensely harder. If you have a wasps nest you deal with it properly. You don't take a stick and start wacking while you boast to your neighbor how manly you are. Of course, in this case, Trump tossed the hornets nest into his neighbor's yard and started throwing bricks.
 
Last edited:
The whole thing is actually simpler than people think, it's just not going to be and never was going to be neat. We are just too stupid to see it. Conservatives argued it wrong as they supported Bush no matter what, while Liberals criticized no matter what. Those Bush arguments led people away from the problem and into talking points like "WMD" or "Democracy" for the simple sake of democracy. Like I argued even back then on this site, this was never just about Iraq.

Then comes the Arab Spring, where Obama refused to get off the fence even as millions of Muslims across the region protested for socioeconomic justice, dignity, and democracy. He only began to turn when Mubarak got ousted; and even then, he was careful not to upset the autocracies that may keep the balance on their side. Along comes Egypt's first democratic election and their crappy choice is either Mubarak's former Prime Minister (Shafik) or a representative of the Muslim Brotherhood (Morsi). Perhaps Americans can sympathize with that choice after last year (Trump Vs. Clinton). Morsie narrowly wins and American Conservatives and Liberals argue that this (added to Iran's Revolution) is proof that democracy in the ME will only lead to Islamism. Yet, inside a year, as Morsi began introducing Islamism into the government, Egyptians went right back to the street to protest until the Army deposed and ran another election.

Our foreign policy has been wrong headed. The region is struggling through a philosophical argument between Islamic Modernists (Arab Spring) and Islamists (Al-Qaeda, IS, Boko Haram). They have been struggling since the late nineteenth century and throughout the twentieth century, Islamists became more and more desperate against their dictators and against how the world had developed, until they began adopting militant tactics, assassinations, and terror. As much as people want "the terrorists" to be about them in their little homes in New York or Idaho, this is a local issue. And it is one that could have been sorted out long ago, before the Islamist mood turned entirely sour and began lashing out, had we recognized throughout the Cold War what was actually going on. Understanding this in the 1990s, alone, would have been enough to make 9/11 non-existent.

But Trump? He's just a moron. This Jerusalem move is as stupidly off-the-cuff as his Tweets. General Mattis' job just got intensely harder. If you have a wasps nest you deal with it properly. You don't take a stick and start wacking while you boast to your neighbor how manly you are. Of course, in this case, Trump tossed the hornets nest into his neighbor's yard and started throwing bricks.

What you describe sounds like a different version of the same problem we face from the same crew of politicos.
I think that lobbyists and autocrats are exploiting the same weaknesses in our system.

Our politicos can't stop buttering their bread even in the face of an oncoming locomotive.
They keep getting rewarded by (lobbyists/autocrats) for doing things which are wrong-headed and even counter-productive for everyone but the (lobbyists/autocrats).
So their obdurance persists.

The USG is for hire.

It's a systemic issue based on exploiting game-breaking bugs.
Maybe we'll all team up fix it.
 
The sooner those that have come to believe the scam that is the "Russia Collusion Investigation", the sooner their credibility will return. [best case]



for some, like your quoted, that ship has sailed a long long time ago.
 
The whole thing is actually simpler than people think, it's just not going to be and never was going to be neat. We are just too stupid to see it. Conservatives argued it wrong as they supported Bush no matter what, while Liberals criticized no matter what. Those Bush arguments led people away from the problem and into talking points like "WMD" or "Democracy" for the simple sake of democracy. Like I argued even back then on this site, this was never just about Iraq.

Then comes the Arab Spring, where Obama refused to get off the fence even as millions of Muslims across the region protested for socioeconomic justice, dignity, and democracy. He only began to turn when Mubarak got ousted; and even then, he was careful not to upset the autocracies that may keep the balance on their side. Along comes Egypt's first democratic election and their crappy choice is either Mubarak's former Prime Minister (Shafik) or a representative of the Muslim Brotherhood (Morsi). Perhaps Americans can sympathize with that choice after last year (Trump Vs. Clinton). Morsie narrowly wins and American Conservatives and Liberals argue that this (added to Iran's Revolution) is proof that democracy in the ME will only lead to Islamism. Yet, inside a year, as Morsi began introducing Islamism into the government, Egyptians went right back to the street to protest until the Army deposed and ran another election.

Our foreign policy has been wrong headed. The region is struggling through a philosophical argument between Islamic Modernists (Arab Spring) and Islamists (Al-Qaeda, IS, Boko Haram). They have been struggling since the late nineteenth century and throughout the twentieth century, Islamists became more and more desperate against their dictators and against how the world had developed, until they began adopting militant tactics, assassinations, and terror. As much as people want "the terrorists" to be about them in their little homes in New York or Idaho, this is a local issue. And it is one that could have been sorted out long ago, before the Islamist mood turned entirely sour and began lashing out, had we recognized throughout the Cold War what was actually going on. Understanding this in the 1990s, alone, would have been enough to make 9/11 non-existent.

But Trump? He's just a moron. This Jerusalem move is as stupidly off-the-cuff as his Tweets. General Mattis' job just got intensely harder. If you have a wasps nest you deal with it properly. You don't take a stick and start wacking while you boast to your neighbor how manly you are. Of course, in this case, Trump tossed the hornets nest into his neighbor's yard and started throwing bricks.




The "Arab Spring" was an islamic uprising to establish a caliphate. It was not, nor ever was it a protest for "socioeconomic justice, dignity, and democracy." that's what the administration, hillary, and the media tried to sell it as. The "arab spring" was almost exclusively a disaster.
 
What you describe sounds like a different version of the same problem we face from the same crew of politicos.
I think that lobbyists and autocrats are exploiting the same weaknesses in our system.

Our politicos can't stop buttering their bread even in the face of an oncoming locomotive.
They keep getting rewarded by (lobbyists/autocrats) for doing things which are wrong-headed and even counter-productive for everyone but the (lobbyists/autocrats).
So their obdurance persists.

The USG is for hire.

It's a systemic issue based on exploiting game-breaking bugs.
Maybe we'll all team up fix it.

"Exploiting game breaking bugs". Great way to say it.

I've used the analogy that capitalism is great but due for a 400 year service.
 
What you describe sounds like a different version of the same problem we face from the same crew of politicos.
I think that lobbyists and autocrats are exploiting the same weaknesses in our system.

Our politicos can't stop buttering their bread even in the face of an oncoming locomotive.
They keep getting rewarded by (lobbyists/autocrats) for doing things which are wrong-headed and even counter-productive for everyone but the (lobbyists/autocrats).
So their obdurance persists.

The USG is for hire.

It's a systemic issue based on exploiting game-breaking bugs.
Maybe we'll all team up fix it.

Oh I had to think hard on this to remember:

What you described reminded me of the "Progress Trap." It's a theory pushed forward by Ronald Wright in A Short History of Progress that talks about how societies can collapse. Due to more information being known now, his chapter on Easter Island doesn't fit anymore, but his general argument is sound I think. As I recall, one of his examples was how the Native Americans used cliffs in Canada to slaughter buffalo and bison in mass. Instead of the effort of taking the time to sneak up and kill a few, they learned that they could just work them into a frenzy and chase them towards cliffs, where they would simply pick up what they needed and move on. This left hundreds and thousands rotting. In time this "progress" wrecked the hunting grounds of their food source, which forced them to move south. Another chapter is on global warming. We know what's happening, yet we continue our bad habits and call it "progress" like morons.

Our politicians do the same. They are trapped in a system of exploitation between wealthy donors/lobbyists and themselves. They use each other to "progress" their agendas. And despite politicians knowing that this has caused great interruption in our ability to move society forward and is very harmful, they simply keep doing it.
 
"Exploiting game breaking bugs". Great way to say it.
I've used the analogy that capitalism is great but due for a 400 year service.

I don't think it's capitalism per se.
It seems to be more focused on the fact that it's more efficiently rewarding for a candidate to please a dozen donors than to please the majority of their constituents.

If you're playing the get-elected-politics game, it's an eminently productive strategy to embrace—especially since your competition is also embracing that strategy.
This creates a handle on the politicos and their organizations which can be wielded by our enemies foreign and domestic.

The intention of democratic forms of government is to guard against the problem of a small group of people bending the entire nation to their will.
But this loophole we're discussing effectively short circuits the gears because the electorate's support has become a tertiary concern for the political players.
 
The "Arab Spring" was an islamic uprising to establish a caliphate. It was not, nor ever was it a protest for "socioeconomic justice, dignity, and democracy." that's what the administration, hillary, and the media tried to sell it as. The "arab spring" was almost exclusively a disaster.

No it wasn't. It was exactly what I stated. I don't care what Hillary told you. The three new constitutions that came from the uprising (Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya) were all liberal. The Arab Spring was evidence that the Islamist philosophy had become bankrupt. This is one of the reasons they lash out so violently now. 9/11, Al-Qaeda, and the so-called Islamic State are all only symptoms.

As for the Arab Spring being a disaster, I would point out that it took the French over a hundred years to get democracy right after the French Revolution. In the mean time, they elected Napoleon, who went on to terrorize Europe and the Middle East and proclaim himself Emperor. And still, during World War II, French democracy took a back seat to Vichy France. I would also point out our own history, where we fought a "Revolution" after declaring that all men are equal. Still, we had to later fight a civil war to free slaves. Still, we had to march for civil rights.

The Arab Spring was merely a step in a process. We Americans are far too quick to declare the failure in others. Cosuder this as well...

Since it took Western financial backing and support to ensure the stability of dictators during the Cold War, its stands to reason that Western financial backing and support is also necessary to help strengthen new democracies. The United States committed $128 billion in today’s dollars during the four years of the Marshall Plan in post-World War II Western Europe. In the first year and a half after the Arab Spring uprisings, the United States proposed only $2.2 billion in new aid to affected countries in the MENA. The United States gave Muslim dictators far much more of a chance to survive than it gave these new Muslim democracies.

Like I stated before, our foreign policy is wrong headed because we remain ignorant to shat is happening right before our very eyes.
 
The sooner those that have come to believe the scam that is the "Russia Collusion Investigation", the sooner their credibility will return. [best case]

LOL! As soon as you can demonstrate that it's a 'scam', the sooner such histrionics will be taken seriously.
 
No it wasn't. It was exactly what I stated. I don't care what Hillary told you. The three new constitutions that came from the uprising (Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya) were all liberal. The Arab Spring was evidence that the Islamist philosophy had become bankrupt. This is one of the reasons they lash out so violently now. 9/11, Al-Qaeda, and the so-called Islamic State are all only symptoms.

As for the Arab Spring being a disaster, I would point out that it took the French over a hundred years to get democracy right after the French Revolution. In the mean time, they elected Napoleon, who went on to terrorize Europe and the Middle East and proclaim himself Emperor. And still, during World War II, French democracy took a back seat to Vichy France. I would also point out our own history, where we fought a "Revolution" after declaring that all men are equal. Still, we had to later fight a civil war to free slaves. Still, we had to march for civil rights.

The Arab Spring was merely a step in a process. We Americans are far too quick to declare the failure in others. Cosuder this as well...

Since it took Western financial backing and support to ensure the stability of dictators during the Cold War, its stands to reason that Western financial backing and support is also necessary to help strengthen new democracies. The United States committed $128 billion in today’s dollars during the four years of the Marshall Plan in post-World War II Western Europe. In the first year and a half after the Arab Spring uprisings, the United States proposed only $2.2 billion in new aid to affected countries in the MENA. The United States gave Muslim dictators far much more of a chance to survive than it gave these new Muslim democracies.

Like I stated before, our foreign policy is wrong headed because we remain ignorant to shat is happening right before our very eyes.



read this:

The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants - SPIEGEL ONLINE

note the 4th phase.

Note when this was written. Yes a little behind schedule.... but you should get the point.



then read this:

'Arab Spring was really a spring for al-Qaeda' | Middle East | Al Jazeera



You tell me which of the "Arab spring" nations, was a success. tell me which one has a better government, and which has lessened it's fundamentalist islamic views. I believe only two nations can be said was not an abject failure of the myth the arab spring was sold to us as.




I agree our policy is wrong headed. We need a complete withrdrawal, let the arab world fall where it may without our money, and let muslim men fight muslim wars.
 
We had Brian Ross' hot scoop that candidate Trump told Flynn to contact the Russians, which fizzled.

Now a New York Times scoop is getting the same treatment. Again on the Russia story.

These guys want the Russia collusion story to be true sooooo baaaaad that they keep getting ahead of themselves. They keep trying to turn speculation and innuendo into facts.

What is bringing all this to white hot intensity is the fact that Trump is on the verge of succeeding bigly. If they can't take him down before the economy gets really good then they will have lost for good in the same way they lost to Reagan. That's Victor David Hanson's theory [video link, long], anyway.

Mueller already has Collusion and Obstruction of Justice. Here is the thread on that.
https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...on-justice-hes-going-after-trump-mob-now.html

What he is going after now--is this Russian mob connection (money laundering) by subpoenaing Deutsche bank records on Monday. This video explains it.


It's clear you're still watching FOX NEWS which hasn't been reporting a lot of information on this. This the way they handled 3 Federal Grand Jury indictments and one guilty plea.

 
Last edited:
I don't think it's capitalism per se.
It seems to be more focused on the fact that it's more efficiently rewarding for a candidate to please a dozen donors than to please the majority of their constituents.

If you're playing the get-elected-politics game, it's an eminently productive strategy to embrace—especially since your competition is also embracing that strategy.
This creates a handle on the politicos and their organizations which can be wielded by our enemies foreign and domestic.

The intention of democratic forms of government is to guard against the problem of a small group of people bending the entire nation to their will.
But this loophole we're discussing effectively short circuits the gears because the electorate's support has become a tertiary concern for the political players.

Maybe I would have been more accurate to say its one of capitalisms "flaws". That wealth can concentrate to the point it subverts democracies. Especially representative ones where power is distilled down to a relatively tiny handful.
 
Back
Top Bottom