Accepting the bias premise, is it naturally self-leveling?

Mach · Apr 20, 2017

Grim17 said:
. The mainstream news media doesn't try to reflect the views of the public at large, they try instead to create or manipulate those views..

By being accurate when the public at large is not.
By being ethical when the public at large is not.
By holding people accountable to reason and science, when the large public surely does not.
By being well educated when the larger public is not.

Of course they "appear" liberal, if you consider conservatism to oppose all those things.

Grim17 · Apr 20, 2017

Mach said:
By being accurate when the public at large is not.

Accuracy does not equate to unbiased.

By being ethical when the public at large is not.

Framing news stories to favor one political side over another, isn't what I would call "ethical" behavior... I guess it depends on an individuls moral compass.

By holding people accountable to reason and science, when the large public surely does not.

The term "reason" is highly subjective, depending on who you ask. As for science, I disagree that the public at large rejects it. The only time I hear someone make such a claim, is when they are trying to demean others politically.

By being well educated when the larger public is not.

The word "educated" is also subjective. A person doesn't need a college degree to know their ass from a hole in the ground. Some of the most memorable idiots I've encountered in my life were "well educated", while some of the smartest people I know barely made it through high school.

Judging the public based on the number of diplomas they possess, is elitist and the height of arrogance.

Of course they "appear" liberal, if you consider conservatism to oppose all those things.

The mainstream news media doesn't "appear" to have a liberal bias, they most definitely have it. Decades of evidence proves it.

.

mpg · Apr 21, 2017

sear said:
Please don't misinterpret me here mg. You may be absolutely right.
But I wonder. What is that mechanism?
Do these individual media elements do so?
Or are they simply as they are, whatever they are, and there's some sort of overlay applied to them?

Thanks for that. You've reminded me:

mg added:

I find your " It isn't controlled by public opinion " very interesting.
Perhaps it is not DICTATED by public opinion. BUT !!

al Jazeera tried to get a news beachhead in the U.S., and failed.
Why?
It couldn't get the ratings it needed to sustain itself.
Know it or not, believe it or not, like it or not, admit it or not; any individual news medium is in essence a $money $making organization, or not.
In the case of newspapers, circulation is the make or break for them.
For broadcast media, ratings determines their fate.

Is that not "public opinion" of a sort?

I'm not trying to be contentious with you mg. You're obviously a s a v v y observer.
But you have me wondering what degree (if any) we news consumers have.

And to the "tea party" an unredeemable lefty.

I've not figured out why it's the Republican party that so frequently is the dog wagged by its tail.
It has been since the Reagan coalition got the evangelical vote.
And now the tea baggers hold sway.

It isn't just taxes. On a variety of issues, you can be well to the left of center, but if you aren't on the extreme left, they'll demonize you.

Media_Truth · Apr 29, 2017

Skeptic Bob said:
I don't care so much if a news outlet is biased, as long as it is truthful.

AGREED! It's like a lying child. You never know what's true and what's false. I attended an Evangelical church for a while, and the ultra-Conservatives would often argue among themselves, one saying a story from FOX was true, and one saying it was false.

RetiredUSN · Apr 29, 2017

A network's bank account takes priority over it being 100% factually correct in it's content.

You go with what sells advertisement.

Manc Skipper · Apr 29, 2017

Grim17 said:
Accuracy does not equate to unbiased.

Framing news stories to favor one political side over another, isn't what I would call "ethical" behavior... I guess it depends on an individuls moral compass.

The term "reason" is highly subjective, depending on who you ask. As for science, I disagree that the public at large rejects it. The only time I hear someone make such a claim, is when they are trying to demean others politically.

The word "educated" is also subjective. A person doesn't need a college degree to know their ass from a hole in the ground. Some of the most memorable idiots I've encountered in my life were "well educated", while some of the smartest people I know barely made it through high school.

Judging the public based on the number of diplomas they possess, is elitist and the height of arrogance.

The mainstream news media doesn't "appear" to have a liberal bias, they most definitely have it. Decades of evidence proves it.

.

Facts are liberally biased in Conservaworld.

Grim17 · Apr 29, 2017

Media_Truth said:
AGREED! It's like a lying child. You never know what's true and what's false. I attended an Evangelical church for a while, and the ultra-Conservatives would often argue among themselves, one saying a story from FOX was true, and one saying it was false.

You can't comment without taking a shot at Fox News... Talk about an unhealthy obsession.

.

code1211 · Apr 29, 2017

sear said:
Whether there is media bias is debatable in both kind, and degree.

For sake of argument, let's (for now) presume there is bias.

We have a First Amendment.

If a "liberal" wants to start a newspaper publishing business, s/he's welcome to do so.

If a "conservative" wants to start a newspaper publishing business, s/he's welcome to do so as well.

Our First Amendment protects both.

So:

If we all have a legal right to publish a newspaper, doesn't democracy rather level things?

If our society is biased 90% conservative, then wouldn't the press reflect that 90% bias?

Is that a bad thing?

Freedom of the press is a right to which anyone with a printing press is entitled.

Absolutely right!

As with any product for sale, journalism is a product that can be produced with integrity and honesty.

It can also be a tool of deception with an agenda driven goal.

Caveat emptor!

Kal'Stang · Apr 29, 2017

sear said:
Whether there is media bias is debatable in both kind, and degree.

For sake of argument, let's (for now) presume there is bias.

We have a First Amendment.

If a "liberal" wants to start a newspaper publishing business, s/he's welcome to do so.

If a "conservative" wants to start a newspaper publishing business, s/he's welcome to do so as well.

Our First Amendment protects both.

So:

If we all have a legal right to publish a newspaper, doesn't democracy rather level things?

If our society is biased 90% conservative, then wouldn't the press reflect that 90% bias?

Is that a bad thing?

Freedom of the press is a right to which anyone with a printing press is entitled.

I would say that a biased media is a detriment to a democracy. Just as much as a free press is damaging to a dictatorship. A biased media is about pushing an agenda. Such does not give people the actual facts in order to make their own informed decisions. Such plays on peoples emotions in order to attempt to bring about an outcome that the biased media wants to bring about. Regardless if its actually "right" for the people on an individual basis or not. There's a reason that a true democracy is considered a "mob". Mobs rule based on emotion. Not intellectualism.

I'd say more but I've got to bring my wife to work. TTYL.

Harshaw · Apr 29, 2017

sear said:
Whether there is media bias is debatable in both kind, and degree.

For sake of argument, let's (for now) presume there is bias.

We have a First Amendment.

If a "liberal" wants to start a newspaper publishing business, s/he's welcome to do so.

If a "conservative" wants to start a newspaper publishing business, s/he's welcome to do so as well.

Our First Amendment protects both.

So:

If we all have a legal right to publish a newspaper, doesn't democracy rather level things?

If our society is biased 90% conservative, then wouldn't the press reflect that 90% bias?

Is that a bad thing?

Freedom of the press is a right to which anyone with a printing press is entitled.

Why, in this particular topic, do you feel the need to stress that freedom of the press is a right everyone has, and why do you think freedom of the press obviates the need for this whole "Media Bias" section?

Media_Truth · Apr 30, 2017

Grim17 said:
You can't comment without taking a shot at Fox News... Talk about an unhealthy obsession.

.

The unhealthy obsession belongs to you and your'n, who watch the nonsense.

Media_Truth · Apr 30, 2017

Grim17 said:
Democracy has nothing to do with bias in the news media, because media outlets are privately owned, not publicly elected.
.

Not true at all. When the Oligarchs are using their well-financed media, lobby groups, and lawsuit-happy watchdog groups to buy American opinion, with lies, it can become an abuse of our Governmental system, and a serious threat to Democracy. That said, there is Freedom of Speech in this country. However, it's up to other media sources to expose these threats to Democracy, just like CNN called out FOX News for lying in this video, which I've posted on other threads recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lESv9TkfoCE

sear · May 1, 2017

"Why, in this particular topic, do you feel the need to stress that freedom of the press is a right everyone has" H #35

No.
I was explicitly clear. My posted assertion was:

"Freedom of the press is a right to which anyone with a printing press is entitled." s

Do YOU own a printing press? I don't. And therefore freedom of the press is not a right I am entitled to.

"and why do you think freedom of the press obviates the need for this whole "Media Bias" section?" H #35

Is that what I think?!

I didn't know that.

Harshaw · May 1, 2017

sear said:
No.
I was explicitly clear. My posted assertion was:

Do YOU own a printing press? I don't. And therefore freedom of the press is not a right I am entitled to.

Not the point. Why did you feel need to stress freedom of the press?

Is that what I think?!

I didn't know that.

You expounded upon it here:

sear said:
If "everyone knows", if "it's already perfectly obvious", then why dedicate a forum to it?

Reductio ad absurdum:

a) the forum exists.

b) The forum is populated with multiple threads / topics, most of them with multiple comments; thus indicating there's interest in the topic. Why would that be, if it was as foregone as you represent it to be?

Therefore I conclude your "everyone knows", if "it's already perfectly obvious" rhetoric is exaggerated, and inaccurate.

Also, note: if you snip the name out of the quote, the person you're quoting doesn't get notified that you did.

MrWonka · May 1, 2017

sear said:
If we all have a legal right to publish a newspaper, doesn't democracy rather level things?

One of the fundamental necessities of a democracy however is a well educated populace capable of separating bull**** from falsehoods. In this country however conservative parts of the country have done such a poor job of educating their children and in fact often times brain washing them in to lies from the outset that to them the bull**** is the only thing they believe. They've had these disgusting ideas drilled into their heads from the time they were children, and now it doesn't matter how good of a job you do of explaining to them why they are wrong they are too closed minded and bullheaded to accept reality.

MrWonka · May 1, 2017

sear said:
If our society is biased 90% conservative, then wouldn't the press reflect that 90% bias?

Furthermore there is a second major problem with this. The truth does in fact skew 90% in favor of liberals. The media reflects that reality and so by and large most media outlets report that truth fairly well. However this leaves a whole bunch of truth tellers trying to compete for the same audience. Where as one or two liars can corner the market on those who aren't interested in the truth. This is why Fox News has such good ratings. All the right wingers in the country gravitate towards the one network that tells them what they want to hear where as moderates and liberals split their viewership among many different outlets. Fox News then uses their popularity as an argument for their honesty when in fact it is exactly the opposite.

sear · May 1, 2017

" Why did you feel need to stress freedom of the press? " H

The "Forum" category is:

In the news

Bias in the Media

and the topic title is:

Accepting the bias premise, is it naturally self-leveling?

That would seem to invoke the First Amendment. Does it not?

And freedom of the press is an enumerated First Amendment right. Is it not?

Is there a problem?

"You expounded upon it here:" H

Very well.

BUT !!

I did not assert that:

"freedom of the press obviates the need for this whole "Media Bias" section?" H #35

- and -

" if you snip the name out of the quote, the person you're quoting doesn't get notified that you did. " H

a) oh

b) I don't snip, but instead type in the embedded code, thus making possible responding to selected multiple quotations.
Using the stock format leads to headaches, for example, quoting a passage from a previous post automatically deletes any previous quotation. That is frick in stupid.

Don't need it.

Won't have it.

Happy May day.

Harshaw · May 1, 2017

sear said:
The "Forum" category is:

In the news

Bias in the Media

and the topic title is:

Accepting the bias premise, is it naturally self-leveling?

That would seem to invoke the First Amendment. Does it not?

:shrug:

No. Not automatically.

And freedom of the press is an enumerated First Amendment right. Is it not?

So?

Is there a problem?

You tell me.

The subject of media bias need not have anything to do with freedom of the press. Everyone can accept, as I do, an extremely expansive interpretation of freedom of the press and still have issues with bias in the media.

Are you one of those people who think that "they have a right to do it!" is actually a legitimate response to criticism of the content of what they do?

I did not assert that:

Sure, you did. You were saying, basically, "if everyone knows about freedom of the press, why are there so many posts in the Media Bias section?"

Thus, you think if freedom of the press were generally accepted, no one would be concerned with media bias.

a) oh

b) I don't snip, but instead type in the embedded code, thus making possible responding to selected multiple quotations.
Using the stock format leads to headaches, for example, quoting a passage from a previous post automatically deletes any previous quotation. That is frick in stupid.

You're doing it wrong. If you want to quote multiple posts, click this button on all the previous posts you want to include:

And then click this one on the last post you want to include:

If you continually quote without including names, it will look like you're trying to avoid alerting the person you quoted them.

Harshaw · May 1, 2017

MrWonka said:
Furthermore there is a second major problem with this. The truth does in fact skew 90% in favor of liberals. The media reflects that reality and so by and large most media outlets report that truth fairly well.

:lamo

fmw · May 1, 2017

sear said:
Whether there is media bias is debatable in both kind, and degree.

For sake of argument, let's (for now) presume there is bias.

We have a First Amendment.

If a "liberal" wants to start a newspaper publishing business, s/he's welcome to do so.

If a "conservative" wants to start a newspaper publishing business, s/he's welcome to do so as well.

Our First Amendment protects both.

So:

If we all have a legal right to publish a newspaper, doesn't democracy rather level things?

If our society is biased 90% conservative, then wouldn't the press reflect that 90% bias?

Is that a bad thing?

Freedom of the press is a right to which anyone with a printing press is entitled.

Of course the first amendment applies to all equally. However, media bias doesn't necessarily reflect the average bias of the public. We all know that actors, professors and media reporters are biased left and rednecks and country singers are biased right. Did I get that right?

sear · May 1, 2017

"However, media bias doesn't necessarily reflect the average bias of the public." f #45

News media are consumer driven.

Rush Limbaugh / EIB is a commercial success.

Vehemence plays a role.

Does the Limbaugh fan (fanatic) base reflect the population ratio they comprise?

In intensity perhaps. In number? What counterpart zealots are there among liberals?

"Did I get that right?" f #45

It's a popular stereotype.
I believe and hope reality is a bit more sophisticated.

solonAZ · May 4, 2017

I don't have a problem with bias. It is natural and easy to discern. I don't like DISHONESTY which is a whole other thing.

mpg · May 4, 2017

solonAZ said:
I don't have a problem with bias. It is natural and easy to discern. I don't like DISHONESTY which is a whole other thing.

By definition, news is unbiased, so when something biased is labeled as news, that's dishonest brainwashing.

sear · May 4, 2017

"By definition, news is unbiased" M #48

Wouldn't that be wonderful !

By definition water is wet.
So the term "dry water" would be self-contradictory, and "wet water" redundant. "Unbiased news"?

It's not easy to report an event without any bias.
Even the language, and dialect of the language can bias a report. That may nowhere on Earth be more obvious than in China, where there are so many dialects that a sentence spoken in one rural village might not be understood by those from 3 villages away.

I'm trying to make a point broader than the mere priggish distinction here.

In our 3rd Millennium, it's best for s a v v y voters to dispense with the notion of unbiased news; even if there were such thing.

It is safer to presume that there is intrinsic bias, and to reflexively identify that bias, than to assume there is none.

Thoreau72 · May 6, 2017

mpg said:
By definition, news is unbiased, so when something biased is labeled as news, that's dishonest brainwashing.

I'm not sure that's completely true. The important part is HOW any given piece of news is presented. Whether the news is complete or not, whether all details are presented or at least referenced.

Accepting the bias premise, is it naturally self-leveling?

Mach

Grim17

Battle Ready

mpg

Media_Truth

RetiredUSN

Manc Skipper

Wrinkly member

Grim17

Battle Ready

code1211

Kal'Stang

Harshaw

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot

Media_Truth

Media_Truth

sear

Advisor, aka "bub"

Harshaw

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot

MrWonka

MrWonka

sear

Advisor, aka "bub"

Harshaw

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot

Harshaw

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot

fmw

sear

Advisor, aka "bub"

solonAZ

New member

mpg

sear

Advisor, aka "bub"

Thoreau72