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Hell is Real. John Bosco's Dream

Mashmont said:
There are a lot of positive reasons to live the best life you can. But that doesn't mean fear of hell is a bad reason.
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Sure it does...it is an insincere reason...love is a much stronger, lasting reason...cultivating love for God and a healthy fear of displeasing Him​...not fear of torment in hell...can motivate us to do God’s will in order to enjoy lasting happiness...once hell is gone and that fear of hell is gone, the person who serves God only out of fear of hell, will more than likely resort to his old, sinful ways again and God knows that...
 
roguenuke said:
The same logic would apply to children of abusive narcissitic parents then "they chose to disobey, so the burning punishment, torment is their own doing".

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Exactly, but those children who obey their parents because they love them and wish to please them, is much more satisfying for both child and parent....
 
roguenuke said:
The same logic would apply to children of abusive narcissitic parents then "they chose to disobey, so the burning punishment, torment is their own doing".

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Why do you think there should be no justice? You still haven't answered that.
 
NWO_Spook said:
Of course, but they do not require a belief in gods and magic to have purpose.



I do not fear that which is unknown.
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Aside from the God worship thing, without belief in God, people don't live fully moral lives. It sounds good, but it doesn't happen. For example, I don't know of a single atheist who believes sex outside marriage is immoral or that masturbation is immoral. And yet they are, because they lead to destructive consquences.
 
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Mashmont said:
Why do you think there should be no justice? You still haven't answered that.
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There is a difference between justice and abuse or cruelty. Burning a child for disobedience is not viewed as fair justice by most people. Why should we view a God doing it as such?

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roguenuke said:
There is a difference between justice and abuse or cruelty. Burning a child for disobedience is not viewed as fair justice by most people. Why should we view a God doing it as such?

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Simple...He wouldn't...Jehovah God went so far as to express repugnance for such a practice, saying that it was “a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart”...Jeremiah 7:31; 32:35...
 
roguenuke said:
There is a difference between justice and abuse or cruelty. Burning a child for disobedience is not viewed as fair justice by most people. Why should we view a God doing it as such?

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This is like saying God was cruel when He instituted gravity. How could He, the question goes, be so cruel as to splatter people against the ground for disrespecting His law of gravity? It's ridiculous. There's no point in arguing it, gravity just is. And it's the same for arguing against any of God's laws and punishments. They just are. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. Everyone is subject to the same laws and the same consequences for breaking them.

The child analogy is not apt. With God, people put themselves into hell by openly and willfully disobeying God's laws. They have many chances to not go there, and they still make the decision to do so.
 
Mashmont said:
This is like saying God was cruel when He instituted gravity. How could He, the question goes, be so cruel as to splatter people against the ground for disrespecting His law of gravity? It's ridiculous. There's no point in arguing it, gravity just is. And it's the same for arguing against any of God's laws and punishments. They just are. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. Everyone is subject to the same laws and the same consequences for breaking them.

The child analogy is not apt. With God, people put themselves into hell by openly and willfully disobeying God's laws. They have many chances to not go there, and they still make the decision to do so.
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Not even close to the same thing. Not that I believe God instituted gravity because it is a natural occurrence of scientific basis. It serves a very important purpose for us to even exist.

The same is not true when discussing laws claimed by other humans to come from God and the consequences of not obeying those laws, also fed to us by other humans. They are not natural laws that serve a purpose, aid in our very existence. Hell, eternal damnation serves no legitimate purpose. God decided it, if the Bible stories are true, for no other reason than his own narcissism, anger, emotional state, etc. It serves no just purpose and is something an omnipotent god does not have to abide by, could change at any time.

The child openly disobeyed rules set forth by his/her parents, rules that the child most likely got directly from the parent rather than proxy through others too.

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roguenuke said:
Not even close to the same thing. Not that I believe God instituted gravity because it is a natural occurrence of scientific basis. It serves a very important purpose for us to even exist.

The same is not true when discussing laws claimed by other humans to come from God and the consequences of not obeying those laws, also fed to us by other humans. They are not natural laws that serve a purpose, aid in our very existence. Hell, eternal damnation serves no legitimate purpose. God decided it, if the Bible stories are true, for no other reason than his own narcissism, anger, emotional state, etc. It serves no just purpose and is something an omnipotent god does not have to abide by, could change at any time.

The child openly disobeyed rules set forth by his/her parents, rules that the child most likely got directly from the parent rather than proxy through others too.

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Are governments who lock up murderers for life also narcissistic?

You accept 'natural' consequences you can observe as necessary, ignoring the fact that God instituted them. The fact is, God instituted everything you can see and not see. They're His laws, so they're perfect. You ingore God's laws of gravity, you go splat. You ignore God's of behavior, you burn. It's your decision how it will go in both cases. Arguing these consequences are not right is as pointless as howling at a hurricane.
 
Mashmont said:
Are governments who lock up murderers for life also narcissistic?

You accept 'natural' consequences you can observe as necessary, ignoring the fact that God instituted them. The fact is, God instituted everything you can see and not see. They're His laws, so they're perfect. You ingore God's laws of gravity, you go splat. You ignore God's of behavior, you burn. It's your decision how it will go in both cases. Arguing these consequences are not right is as pointless as howling at a hurricane.
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What governments lock up people for simply not believing in them, for only disobeying them or refusing to worship them? How are those governments viewed? Are they viewed as just?

Laws that I can observe and quantify vs laws that other humans dictate as being from God. There is no legitimate comparison there.

It is my decision to not obey laws passed down by other men from Cthulu as well, damn the potential consequences because I have no real objective evidence of how Cthulu wants me to live. I have only the word of others, even if God is real. If that God is punishing people unjustly, as would be the case when it comes to expecting anyone to simply believe in any religion to state what said god wants, then my moral stance is that I should not follow such a cruel and unjust god. I would not approve of such injustice in men, why should I not have even higher expectations of justice from a God?

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Mashmont said:
Aside from the God worship thing, without belief in God, people don't live fully moral lives.
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What a load of rubbish.

It sounds good, but it doesn't happen.
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So you assert, but I find it to be a rather silly claim.

For example, I don't know of a single atheist who believes sex outside marriage is immoral or that masturbation is immoral. And yet they are, because they lead to destructive consequences.
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That's somewhat ridiculous. Sex within marriage can lead to destructive consequences, and I'd be interested in how you arrived at the conclusion that masturbation is immoral and can lead to destructive consequences. Your argument is risible, for applying your 'reasoning', one can posit that driving a car is as equally immoral.
 
Mashmont said:
Aside from the God worship thing, without belief in God, people don't live fully moral lives. It sounds good, but it doesn't happen. For example, I don't know of a single atheist who believes sex outside marriage is immoral or that masturbation is immoral. And yet they are, because they lead to destructive consquences.
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How about masturbation within marriage?
 
Mashmont said:
This is like saying God was cruel when He instituted gravity. How could He, the question goes, be so cruel as to splatter people against the ground for disrespecting His law of gravity? It's ridiculous. There's no point in arguing it, gravity just is. And it's the same for arguing against any of God's laws and punishments. They just are. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. Everyone is subject to the same laws and the same consequences for breaking them.

The child analogy is not apt. With God, people put themselves into hell by openly and willfully disobeying God's laws. They have many chances to not go there, and they still make the decision to do so.
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Accidentally falling to your death is not disrespecting god's law of gravity, it is being a victim of it.
 
I am an atheist who has lived a better moral life that than the pedo Catholic priests and the popes and bishops who protected them.
 
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