• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Marian Doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church

Now.....let's get back to the topic.
 
tosca1 said:
The following defense come from Marian Apologetics:

Marian Apologetics |









What's wrong with that picture?



The apologist starts by talking about what's RECORDED IN THE BIBLE -


and then, he proceeds to give us WRITINGS BY MEN as his evidence! :lol:



Are there St Ambrose and St Basil making those declarations in the Bible?
Give something that's written in the Bible!
Click to expand...

I gave you several things that are in the Bible and you blew them off. I think the phrase you're looking for is "tell me what I want to hear".
 
it's just me said:
I gave you several things that are in the Bible and you blew them off. I think the phrase you're looking for is "tell me what I want to hear".
Click to expand...

Refer to your post #31.


Let's start with this one, I cut out the extraneous BS.

Now then, you agree that Jesus is the biological mother of Jesus. You agree that Jesus was God. So I don't see what your problem is.
Click to expand...
:lol:

With the OP and several posts dealing with each doctrine - you still don't see my problem? :lamo

Of course I'll blow you off. :lol:
 
tosca1 said:
Refer to your post #31.



:lol:

With the OP and several posts dealing with each doctrine - you still don't see my problem? :lamo

Of course I'll blow you off. :lol:
Click to expand...

Well, enjoy talking to yourself, then.
 
Rumpel said:
What isn't?
Everything is derived from paganism.

Go on now.

Tell us, that "Mary worship" is not only pagan, but also satanic.

And that everybody on earth will be sent to hell by your "loving God" - except yourself of course and your fundamental friends.
Click to expand...

God's Word...that's what...He detests paganism...
 
Elvira said:
God's Word...that's what...He detests paganism...
Click to expand...

Oh, what a poor God!
Does he lose his appetite, if confronted with "paganism"?
What about some tolerance?! :)
 
Another false doctrine is the trinity...never will He or would He dwell on the earth...

“But will God really dwell on the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!" 1 Kings
 
Rumpel said:
Oh, what a poor God!
Does he lose his appetite, if confronted with "paganism"?
What about some tolerance?! :)
Click to expand...

Read your Bible, if you dare...there you will find your answer...
 
In regards to prayer: Did George Floyd make mistake when he prayed to his mother ? Or is intercession not possible under any circumstance ?
 
Metanoia said:
In regards to prayer: Did George Floyd make mistake when he prayed to his mother ? Or is intercession not possible under any circumstance ?
Click to expand...

According to the Scriptures, his mother is dead in her grave, awaiting the resurrection...so praying to her or any other human, for that matter, will likely do no good...
 
I know this will probably disturb many. But I would assert that being in heaven is being united with God....Paul as you know spoke of the Christ that lives within...you can call on anyone that is in heaven because when you talk(pray) to one you are in communion with all.....
 
Elvira said:
According to the Scriptures, his mother is dead in her grave, awaiting the resurrection...so praying to her or any other human, for that matter, will likely do no good...
Click to expand...

That was prior to Pentecost....the wait time no longer is applicable....
 
tosca1 said:
1. Mother of God

Mary was the mother of the human, Jesus.
Yes, we know that Jesus and God are One and the same, however, God had wanted for us to believe that Jesus (God as human), was His Son. That is the difference.

Thus, you don't say she is the Mother of God (though we know that Jesus is God Himself).
We say, she is the mother of Jesus.




Think about it:

To make Mary the Mother of God, would put God Himself under the authority of His own creation (human Mary) – after all, wasn't honor to, and obedience to parents among the commands of God? That would make Mary become have a more esteemed position above God Himself,
if she is given the role of "Mother of God."

No one created God. God cannot have a mother.



Furthermore -

even Jesus Christ, speaking as the Son of God, did not place Mary above all others.


Matthew 12
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”



Essentially as Son of God/Messiah, He makes no distinction of that human relationship (Mother and Son) - that He was borne of Mary.



Think for a moment: why would Jesus say that to the crowd?


47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

The timing of Jesus' statement – that which preceedes that response from Jesus – must be included in the context.
It IS crucial to the context!
Click to expand...

the mother is in reference to Mary being the mother of Jesus, it isnt about her creating God

completely wrong

WHAT DO YOU THINK is right in the Bible

your probably a protestant
 
Metanoia said:
That was prior to Pentecost....the wait time no longer is applicable....
Click to expand...

No, the Bible speaks specifically of “last day,” during which the resurrection of the dead is to take place...John 6:39, 40, 44; 11:24...
 
TypicalRussian said:
the mother is in reference to Mary being the mother of Jesus, it isnt about her creating God

completely wrong
Click to expand...


Why call her Mother of God? Why not call her Mother of Jesus?




WHAT DO YOU THINK is right in the Bible
Click to expand...

These:




Isaiah 42
8
“I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.




Matthew 12

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”

49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.

50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”




and many more. But definitely, no Marian doctrines in the Bible.





your probably a protestant
Click to expand...

You're probably a Catholic.....or Anglican?
 
Metanoia said:
I know this will probably disturb many. But I would assert that being in heaven is being united with God....Paul as you know spoke of the Christ that lives within...you can call on anyone that is in heaven because when you talk(pray) to one you are in communion with all.....
Click to expand...

I don't think we need to be in heaven to be One with God.
As I understand it, with Christ in us and us in Christ, we are in God just as He is in with Him.
If you hadn't noticed, faith comes with obedience. It always comes hand-in-hand with obedience.


John 14

19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.
The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”



Having said that................... I wouldn't stretch that as to mean whoever prays to God, also prays to people who are in God.

Just because we are in Christ and One with God, doesn't make us equal with God.
Praying to God would not mean also praying to us. That includes Mary, and all apostles and saints.


Anyway, it is the worship "veneration" of Mary that is being exposed here as unbiblical.
 
Last edited:
Metanoia said:
In regards to prayer: Did George Floyd make mistake when he prayed to his mother ?
Or is intercession not possible under any circumstance ?
Click to expand...
:shock:

What's Floyd got to do with Jesus and Mary? Are you saying Floyd/mother is now equivalent of Jesus/Mary?




Anyway - what is so hard about praying straight to God?

Why does it seem something so difficult to do? Why do you bulk at that?




Or, if you don't want to show that humility to God - then, why can't you folks do it to His human proxy?

Jesus had promised:

ASK ANYTHING IN MY NAME, MY FATHER WILL GRANT YOU.



Why can't you just go pray directly to Jesus, and ask Him to intercede for you? What is the problem with that?


I mean, God wants to get close and personal - and yet you folks keep wanting to keep Him at a distance,
putting up your wall between you and Him (in the form of Mary)! :lol:

I don't get that. :shrug:



CAN YOU PLEASE ANSWER THAT!



If you don't want to pray directly to God (for some odd reason).....fine.

WHY CAN'T YOU JUST GO DIRECTLY TO JESUS?



What's your story?
 
tosca1 said:
Let's assume that indeed, that's true...................... I'm afraid it's still a "lose-lose" situation for the RCC!


The RCC is still defying the Commandment of God (which just reminded me by responding to 2distracted's thread about Scriptures of the day).




This part:

Exodus 20

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above


5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them;



If Mary is upstairs - there shouldn't be a single image of her, not only the existence of her image but much more when it is
something that is bowed down to.................. and much, much worse - performing the act of worship on them.
Click to expand...



Catholics combine the 1st and 2nd commandments for more context and do not take Exodus 20:4 as standalone scripture in it's entirety as though no other context. Catholics look at graven images in proper context as meaning those made to be worshipped in place of or before God. In those times, many religions worshipped many graven images of animals, trees, etc. The Virgin Mary, for instance, is not worshipped as if equal to, in place of, instead of, or before God.
 
Elvira said:
What scripture says that?
Click to expand...



Psalm 132:7-8: “We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.”

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant (see Revelation 11:19-12:1). The Lord ascended into Heaven and also brought His ark.

Christ was sinless. Therefor death could not take Him w/o sin or by the hand of God. It was God that “gave” His life. Mary was born w/o original sin. She never sinned, so could only be taken alive, by assumption. Christ by ascension, because He died.

Enoch and Elijah can be said to have risen to heaven by assumption, but I’m not yet convinced as sin = death and human = sin though with Mary she is explicitly w/o sin.

That's my take on assumption.
 
bluesmoke said:
Psalm 132:7-8: “We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.”

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant (see Revelation 11:19-12:1). The Lord ascended into Heaven and also brought His ark.

Christ was sinless. Therefor death could not take Him w/o sin or by the hand of God. It was God that “gave” His life. Mary was born w/o original sin. She never sinned, so could only be taken alive, by assumption. Christ by ascension, because He died.

Enoch and Elijah can be said to have risen to heaven by assumption, but I’m not yet convinced as sin = death and human = sin though with Mary she is explicitly w/o sin.

That's my take on assumption.
Click to expand...

Yet, in no way does the Bible support that assumption...
 
tosca1 said:
The pope is as human as you and I!

Being a pope does not make him infallible nor does it make him immune to the deceptions of Satan, and he can be a stumbling block too - after all, if your succession of popes had started with Peter - then, you ought to know that I speak the truth, and I have the biblical facts to prove it!


How many times had Jesus corrected Peter with his mistakes? And clearly, popes can succumb to satan.


Matthew 16

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me;

you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Click to expand...



Christ started the Catholic Church in Matthew 16:18, also promised the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide it in truth always.

John 14: 16-17, 26: "I will ask the Father and he will give you another Paraclete—to be with you always; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, since it neither sees him nor recognizes him because he remains with you and will be within you . . . . the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send will remind you of all that I have told you"

The Pope serves as Paraclete (starting with Peter), the advocate of the Holy Spirit, and WHEN doing so is in the Holy Spirit, infallible, so as not to succumb to Satan.

There's a lot more to it, but that's the Catholic short of it.
 
I pray only to the father.....not some great conscious decision but a lifetime commitment. I was simply asking yes or no if one could pray to their mother. I do not care about the best option. The underlying assumption in these discussions is that Christianity is the true religion. Actually I believe God is indiscriminate in his love.
 
Elvira said:
Yet, in no way does the Bible support that assumption...
Click to expand...



What about Mary did I say that cannot be construed from the Bible? What in the Bible tells you that Mary, though without sin, died?

Genesis 5:24 "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." Saying "he was no more" tells me he died, so could not me assumed. But, "because" tells me the reason he was no more wasn't because of death, but because God "took him away". Not sure, but could be.

Second Kings 2:11 "Suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." Could be assumption, but like I said, as best I can tell, no one get's through life w/o sin. Except Mary and Jesus.
 
bluesmoke said:
What about Mary did I say that cannot be construed from the Bible? What in the Bible tells you that Mary, though without sin, died?

Genesis 5:24 "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." Saying "he was no more" tells me he died, so could not me assumed. But, "because" tells me the reason he was no more wasn't because of death, but because God "took him away". Not sure, but could be.

Second Kings 2:11 "Suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." Could be assumption, but like I said, as best I can tell, no one get's through life w/o sin. Except Mary and Jesus.
Click to expand...

If Mary was without sin, why did she present a sin offering after the birth of Jesus?...Leviticus 12:6; Luke 2:22-24...there is not a single Bible text to support the Catholic doctrine that says that she was preserved from original sin by special grace...

I've already explained about Elijah...Elijah does not die at the time of the windstorm, nor does he go into the invisible spirit realm, but he is transferred to another prophetic assignment...John 3:13...this is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master and number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah...2 Chronicles 21:12-15...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom