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Non Catholics can never give a halfway plausible answer to the Q

Elvira said:
Better than cherry pickin', that's for sure...you'll never get the true meaning that way...
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I think the JW's should take that advice and not cherry pick then.
 
tosca1 said:
John 20
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.


However.....that doesn't validate apostolic succession (the belief that the 12 apostles in turn, had passed on their authority to their successors, and this authority was passed on to the next successors throughout the centuries to the present.)

It isn't the TEST for the true church.

All Christians can trace their belief to the Gospels (apostles)!
But as we can see, so many churches had deviated from the Scriptures, and instead of being the true church, they'd become
the very thing that we are warned about (false teachings). Just look at JW as an example.


We know the test for the true church.
The true church teaches what is written in the Scriptures - will compare all doctrines and practices to what is written in the Scriptures, thereby determine what is true scriptural teachings and what is not.

CONSISTENCY and ALIGNMENT with the teachings in the Bible determines the true church.

According to the Bible, the WORD OF GOD was to be the guide that the church will follow (2 Tim 3: 16-17)...........not apostolic succession.
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The NT tells us most of what we know about Jesus, what New Testament did the Apostles use? Answer: they didn't have it yet, so what did they do? Answer: they asked the guys who were there. The next generation of Bishops and Deacons were trained by the Apostles, the generation after that was trained by those Bishops and Deacons, and so on. It wasn't like you could go to the bookstore and buy a Bible, it didn't exist yet.

(By the way, the Jehovah's Witnesses didn't even exist until the 1870s, they are not part of the original Church of Christ, they most certainly DO NOT have succession, and they dont even have part of the truth. Everything they do is for self glorification, I can only guess it has something to do with money.)

So you are defeating your own argument. Schism is not a good thing. Are you unwilling to hear what the mother Church has to say? I'm not RC but I take a lot of my cues from the people who were there.
 
Elvira said:
Better than cherry pickin', that's for sure...you'll never get the true meaning that way...
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No, you never do.

Spare me your personal attacks and deal with the subject at hand. I'm frankly surprised you are still arguing this since you blew it so badly the first time.
 
Elvira said:
My faith goes all the way back to Jesus because it is his teachings alone that I follow...Catholicism, on the other hand, was not started until the 4th century as solely a political move in order to unite Constantine's kingdom...at that time false doctrines 1st became prominent in Christendom...
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That's what u have been taught It's not true

Constantine did not invent Catholicism. He merely declared that Christians...and at that time there only Catholics.. would be protected from the state, be allowed to practice their faith freely.

Besides, it hardly makes sense..(even if u refuse to believe what I just said) to believe that true Christianity arrived on the scene in the 16th century via, say, Martin Luther ("Father of Protestantism") when /if you refuse to accept a Christan religion that arrived much much earlier in time, namely that constantinian one of the 4th century u wrote of

In other words why would you accept Lutheranism much less any of the varieties of Christianity that came after Luther

But you despise a church u think was invented (or tainted) nearly 1200 years earlier?
 
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2distracted said:
That's what u have been taught It's not true

Constantine did not invent Catholicism. He merely declared that Christians...and at that time there only Catholics.. would be protected from the state, be allowed to practice their faith freely.

Besides, it hardly makes sense..(even if u refuse to believe what I just said) to believe that true Christianity arrived on the scene via, say, Martin Luther ("Father of Protestantism") when /if you refuse to accept a Christan religion that arrived much much earlier in time, namely that constantinian one of the 4th century u wrote of
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Commoners of the time were lucky if they had one book of the Bible in text and they certainly did not have the extra books that Catholics add. You can claim they were Catholics but they certainly didn't know what that means.
 
2distracted said:
That's what u have been taught It's not true

Constantine did not invent Catholicism. He merely declared that Christians...and at that time there only Catholics.. would be protected from the state, be allowed to practice their faith freely.

Besides, it hardly makes sense..(even if u refuse to believe what I just said) to believe that true Christianity arrived on the scene via, say, Martin Luther ("Father of Protestantism") when /if you refuse to accept a Christan religion that arrived much much earlier in time, namely that constantinian one of the 4th century u wrote of
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I get so tired of hearing that. The eastern and western churches existed regardless of anything Constantine did, and they were both Catholic.
 
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tosca1 said:
John 20
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.


However.....that doesn't validate apostolic succession (the belief that the 12 apostles in turn, had passed on their authority to their successors, and this authority was passed on to the next successors throughout the centuries to the present.)

It isn't the TEST for the true church.

All Christians can trace their belief to the Gospels (apostles)!
But as we can see, so many churches had deviated from the Scriptures, and instead of being the true church, they'd become
the very thing that we are warned about (false teachings). Just look at JW as an example.


We know the test for the true church.
The true church teaches what is written in the Scriptures - will compare all doctrines and practices to what is written in the Scriptures, thereby determine what is true scriptural teachings and what is not.

CONSISTENCY and ALIGNMENT with the teachings in the Bible determines the true church.

According to the Bible, the WORD OF GOD was to be the guide that the church will follow (2 Tim 3: 16-17)...........not apostolic succession.
Click to expand...

No, the Bible alone doctrine doesn't wash...

Proof:

Everyone from Luther on down to today has taken upon him herself to read and interpret the Words of Scripture. All we hav as a result. is massive confusion and chaos

That is one reason Jesus gave us a Church...to infallibly teach us what the Bible means (when the meaning is not clear....or when ppl influenced by sin and or the devil want to twist the Word for some nefarious reason)
 
The Holy Roman church of the Middle ages was actually quite corrupt and self serving. Martin Luther saw a change was needed. It's really that simple.
 
Grandpappy said:
The Holy Roman church of the Middle ages was actually quite corrupt and self serving. Martin Luther saw a change was needed. It's really that simple.
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Not hardly

Luther's own words show he was every bit the sinner he accused others of

No, worse...because most others did not leave the True Church

See The Facts About Luther book
 
it's just me said:
No, you never do.

Spare me your personal attacks and deal with the subject at hand. I'm frankly surprised you are still arguing this since you blew it so badly the first time.
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lol...projection gets you every time...
 
2distracted said:
That's what u have been taught It's not true

Constantine did not invent Catholicism. He merely declared that Christians...and at that time there only Catholics.. would be protected from the state, be allowed to practice their faith freely.

Besides, it hardly makes sense..(even if u refuse to believe what I just said) to believe that true Christianity arrived on the scene in the 16th century via, say, Martin Luther ("Father of Protestantism") when /if you refuse to accept a Christan religion that arrived much much earlier in time, namely that constantinian one of the 4th century u wrote of

In other words why would you accept Lutheranism much less any of the varieties of Christianity that came after Luther

But you despise a church u think was invented (or tainted) nearly 1200 years earlier?
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When they teach false doctrines about my God, yes, I do...
 
it's just me said:
The NT tells us most of what we know about Jesus, what New Testament did the Apostles use? Answer: they didn't have it yet, so what did they do? Answer: they asked the guys who were there. The next generation of Bishops and Deacons were trained by the Apostles, the generation after that was trained by those Bishops and Deacons, and so on. It wasn't like you could go to the bookstore and buy a Bible, it didn't exist yet.

(By the way, the Jehovah's Witnesses didn't even exist until the 1870s, they are not part of the original Church of Christ, they most certainly DO NOT have succession, and they dont even have part of the truth. Everything they do is for self glorification, I can only guess it has something to do with money.)

So you are defeating your own argument. Schism is not a good thing. Are you unwilling to hear what the mother Church has to say? I'm not RC but I take a lot of my cues from the people who were there.
Click to expand...

Wrong again...Jesus pointed out that the genuine Christian would be “the one doing the will of my Father”...Matthew 7:21...that ain't those who preach false doctrines...
 
ecofarm said:
Commoners of the time were lucky if they had one book of the Bible in text and they certainly did not have the extra books that Catholics add. You can claim they were Catholics but they certainly didn't know what that means.
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Correct...they were allowed to know only what the Church allowed them to know...
 
Catholicism is a malignant, avaricious cult that has manipulated God's Word into something repressive, hateful, and intolerant.

It's taken God's Word and coated it in a thick layer of repressive and hate-filled rules, hypocrisy, greed, self-interest, judgement, all in order to fill collection plates and control people.

Jesus preached God's Word of compassion, peace, forgiveness, and brotherly love. Anything that any other Christian religion preaches that goes against that Word is wrong...a misinterpretation by men, including those that wrote the Bible...not God.



This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa
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Elvira said:
Wrong again...Jesus pointed out that the genuine Christian would be “the one doing the will of my Father”...Matthew 7:21...that ain't those who preach false doctrines...
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So why are you preaching false doctrine?
 
it's just me said:
So why are you preaching false doctrine?
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"But now you must put them all away from you: wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of your mouth." Colossians 3:8
 
Elvira said:
When they teach false doctrines about my God, yes, I do...
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You are free to be delusional and illogical

But remember Jesus said that few find the way to Heaven

I wouldn't think that those who reject HIS church would be in the category of those who find the Way
 
Elvira said:
"But now you must put them all away from you: wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of your mouth." Colossians 3:8
Click to expand...

I have read the Bible, the whole thing

The word badness

Is not there

The JWs like all false leaders

Change scripture....no fear of God apparently

But Proverbs says

Fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom
 
it's just me said:
The NT tells us most of what we know about Jesus, what New Testament did the Apostles use? Answer: they didn't have it yet, so what did they do? Answer: they asked the guys who were there. The next generation of Bishops and Deacons were trained by the Apostles, the generation after that was trained by those Bishops and Deacons, and so on. It wasn't like you could go to the bookstore and buy a Bible, it didn't exist yet.

(By the way, the Jehovah's Witnesses didn't even exist until the 1870s, they are not part of the original Church of Christ, they most certainly DO NOT have succession, and they dont even have part of the truth. Everything they do is for self glorification, I can only guess it has something to do with money.)

So you are defeating your own argument. Schism is not a good thing. Are you unwilling to hear what the mother Church has to say? I'm not RC but I take a lot of my cues from the people who were there.
Click to expand...


You're missing my point.
I'm saying that apostolic succession is NOT THE TEST for the true religion.
We cannot validate a church to be the true church on the basis of apostolic succession.


Even Paul, had mentioned problems about false teachings and some early Christians (some of whom no doubt were taught about the Gospels) were peddling heresies!



Galatians 1

No Other Gospel

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!



As early as the first century AD, false doctrine was already infiltrating the church, and many of the letters in the New Testament were written to address those errors (Galatians 1:6–9; Colossians 2:20–23; Titus 1:10–11). Paul exhorted his protégé Timothy to guard against those who were peddling heresies and confusing the flock: “If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing” (1 Timothy 6:3–4).
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What is false doctrine? | GotQuestions.org



We can't validate by saying, "oh yeah, it's the true church because it can trace back to the apostles!"
What Christian (even today), does not trace back to the Apostles (if he had read, or heard the Gospel)? One doesn't have to meet or know the apostles personally to be able to say that we can trace back to them.
We are all connected because we learned of Christ through.......the Gospel!


Of course the apostles didn't have the Bible, and yes the apostles did train the next generation of disciples (but they did impart the Gospel to them). That's the lesson that's taught to us now - what's been taught to the immediate successors of the apostles: the Gospel!


When the Bibles became available, through all the centuries even to the present - all Christians can trace their belief to the Gospel (given by the apostles).

A lot of churches that teaches false teachings can trace the origin of their belief back to the Gospels however, they'd corrupted the Gospel.
It's like what Paul was complaining about with those early Christians that broke away and started teaching heresies (Gal. 1).
I gave JW as an example.


The true church does not deviate from or corrupt what is written in the Scriptures.

Consistency and alignment with the teachings in the Scriptures, determine the true church!

Paul had said so:



Gal 1

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
 
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2distracted said:
I have read the Bible, the whole thing

The word badness

Is not there

The JWs like all false leaders

Change scripture....no fear of God apparently

But Proverbs says

Fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom
Click to expand...

Ignoring the message gets you nowhere...;)
 
tosca1 said:
You're missing my point. I'm saying that apostolic succession is NOT THE TEST for the true religion.

Of course the apostles didn't have the Bible, and yes the apostles did train the next generation of disciples (but they did impart the Gospel to them).
Even Paul, had mentioned problems about false teachings and some early Christians (some of whom no doubt were taught about the Gospels) were peddling heresies!

Galatians 1
No Other Gospel

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!




What is false doctrine? | GotQuestions.org



When the Bibles became available, through all the centuries even to the present - all Christians can trace their belief to the Gospel (given by the apostles).
A lot of churches that teaches false teachings can trace the origin of their belief back to the Gospels, however they'd corrupted the Gospel.


The true church does not deviate from or corrupt what is written in the Scriptures. Consistency and alignment with the teachings in the Scriptures, determines the true church!
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Apostolic succession IS one of the signs of the true Church

500 years of rebellion against the one true Church has caused incalculable mischief

A person has to search hard for the truth of Christ's true church...the true teachings, etc

I have done this

Despite all the evil clergy and parishioners

I have absolute certainty vis a vis Christianity... God's truth... scripture
 
Originally Posted by it's just me View Post
The NT tells us most of what we know about Jesus, what New Testament did the Apostles use? Answer: they didn't have it yet, so what did they do? Answer: they asked the guys who were there. The next generation of Bishops and Deacons were trained by the Apostles, the generation after that was trained by those Bishops and Deacons, and so on. It wasn't like you could go to the bookstore and buy a Bible, it didn't exist yet.
Click to expand...

This is a continuation (got cut off by time).


Here is an example why we cannot use apostolic succession as the test for the true religion. People make mistakes.
Here is Paul, rebuking Cephas (Peter).

Galatians 2

Paul Opposes Cephas

11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
 
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