Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

  1. #1
    Practice What You Preach

    Logician Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,581

    God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

    As a former theist who is not afraid or reluctant to ask questions, one of the major reasons I am no longer religious or a believer, is the issue of the biblical claim that the God of Abraham is 'fair' and 'just.' I could post a rather long list, giving examples of biblical scripture as to why I personally don't agree with this claim, but I'll post just one, and state my case as to why I personally find this 'fair' and just' claim to not be true. Bible verse: Kings 2:24 - "Then he ( Elisha ) turned around, and looked at them ( children/young men), and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Suddenly two female bears came out of the woods and mauled 42 of the young men." - All of this carnage for mocking a bald man. I find nothing 'fair' or 'just' in this action/retribution. Question to any/all. What in the world is 'fair' and 'just' about the biblical God taking such severe action against so many children/young men, simply for making fun of a bald person. Does the penalty actually fit the 'crime'? Please state your case, or cite other actions taken by the biblical God of Abraham', that you may find to be anything other than 'fair' and 'just'. Thanks in advance for your input. I must add that the whole 'He (God) is the artist, and can do with his own painting as he sees fit", was never a persuasive argument for me, personally.

  2. #2
    Sage
    Lord Tammerlain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:44 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    17,063

    Re: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

    Old testament god petty, vindictive, and genocidal

    New testament god loving and caring.

    Koran god is far more like the old testament god than old testament god is to the new testament god
    I Survived the Great Mask war of 2020, the greatest affront to Civil Rights in the US. States were liberated from the most severe government oppression ever to occur in the US.

  3. #3
    Sage
    Elvira's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Down South
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    22,052

    Re: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

    Proverbs 17:12 states...

    "Better to meet a bear bereaved of her cubs
    Than to encounter someone stupid in his foolishness."

    In verse 11 of 2 Kings 2, Elijah had just ascended in a windstorm to the heavens, at which time Elisha received the prophetic office of Elijah...that also involved wearing the prophetic garments, as Elijah had worn...the primary reason for the children's jeers was not that Elisha was bald but that they saw a bald man wearing Elijah’s familiar official garment and they did not want any successor of Elijah around...God used the bears to execute divine justice against those who grossly despised Jehovah's representative, Elisha and thus despised Jehovah Himself...
    "I raise my eyes to the mountains.
    From where will my help come?
    My help comes from Jehovah,
    The Maker of heaven and earth." Psalm 121:1,2

  4. #4
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 01:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    8,805

    Re: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

    God is the Lord of justice and decides what justice is before man. Justice is, by definition, what is fair and reasonable. Certainly, much of what God determines as being just is not by common sense fair and reasonable. There's the rub. See rule #1. Whatever God decides is by omniscience and the nature of divine being whatever God says it is, justice. It's the easy-out, the escape clause, the disclaimer, that whatever you by reasoning of the rational mind find unreasonable, unfair and irrational is something that you, a mere human created imperfect by a perfect God, are incapable of understanding that which only God can, and by no other explaining scripture, must give-way to the word of God as being final and just.

  5. #5
    Sage

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:36 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    16,586

    Re: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesmoke View Post
    God is the Lord of justice and decides what justice is before man. Justice is, by definition, what is fair and reasonable. Certainly, much of what God determines as being just is not by common sense fair and reasonable. There's the rub. See rule #1. Whatever God decides is by omniscience and the nature of divine being whatever God says it is, justice. It's the easy-out, the escape clause, the disclaimer, that whatever you by reasoning of the rational mind find unreasonable, unfair and irrational is something that you, a mere human created imperfect by a perfect God, are incapable of understanding that which only God can, and by no other explaining scripture, must give-way to the word of God as being final and just.
    So the priest class gave themselves an out when somebody asks too many questions.
    Supporting Trump, but claiming you are against racism...is like eating a Banana Split every day, but claiming you are against ice cream.

  6. #6
    Ugly bag of mostly water
    it's just me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:04 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,132

    Re: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

    This will probably be lost on you, but:

    38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

    2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
    3 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
    5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
    6 On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—
    7 while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

    8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,
    9 when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness,
    10 when I fixed limits for it
    and set its doors and bars in place,
    11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
    here is where your proud waves halt’?

    12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
    or shown the dawn its place,
    13 that it might take the earth by the edges
    and shake the wicked out of it?
    14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
    its features stand out like those of a garment.
    15 The wicked are denied their light,
    and their upraised arm is broken.

    16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
    or walked in the recesses of the deep?
    17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
    Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
    18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
    Tell me, if you know all this.

    19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
    And where does darkness reside?
    20 Can you take them to their places?
    Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
    21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
    You have lived so many years!

    22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
    or seen the storehouses of the hail,
    23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
    for days of war and battle?
    24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
    or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
    25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
    and a path for the thunderstorm,
    26 to water a land where no one lives,
    an uninhabited desert,
    27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
    and make it sprout with grass?
    28 Does the rain have a father?
    Who fathers the drops of dew?
    29 From whose womb comes the ice?
    Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
    30 when the waters become hard as stone,
    when the surface of the deep is frozen?

    31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
    Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
    32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
    or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
    33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
    Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

    34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
    and cover yourself with a flood of water?
    35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
    Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
    36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
    or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
    37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
    Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
    38 when the dust becomes hard
    and the clods of earth stick together?

    39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
    and satisfy the hunger of the lions
    40 when they crouch in their dens
    or lie in wait in a thicket?
    41 Who provides food for the raven
    when its young cry out to God
    and wander about for lack of food?

    The answer is "no", you don't know any of those things. There are some things that are just above our comprehension. Some of us have more than others.
    "Political bias optional, conformity a MUST!"

  7. #7
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,746

    Re: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvira View Post
    Proverbs 17:12 states...

    "Better to meet a bear bereaved of her cubs
    Than to encounter someone stupid in his foolishness."

    In verse 11 of 2 Kings 2, Elijah had just ascended in a windstorm to the heavens, at which time Elisha received the prophetic office of Elijah...that also involved wearing the prophetic garments, as Elijah had worn...the primary reason for the children's jeers was not that Elisha was bald but that they saw a bald man wearing Elijah’s familiar official garment and they did not want any successor of Elijah around...God used the bears to execute divine justice against those who grossly despised Jehovah's representative, Elisha and thus despised Jehovah Himself...
    if they had attacked him and god could not restrain them then i guess death by bear would be fair enough

    striking them all bald seems more in line with the rudeness of mocking some one over their hair


    if i find you and the god you claim to follow despicable why do you believe i deserve to die over it?

  8. #8
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,746

    Re: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?


  9. #9
    Sage

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:36 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    16,586

    Re: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Old testament god petty, vindictive, and genocidal

    New testament god loving and caring.
    The NT condones slavery. That's not "loving and caring."

    Jesus tells people they're blessed if they live in poverty, if they go to bed hungry every night. Those aren't the words of someone who is "loving and caring". Would you tell your children they should strive to live in poverty, to have so little their children go to be hungry every night?
    Last edited by JustHanging; 05-25-20 at 09:42 AM.
    Supporting Trump, but claiming you are against racism...is like eating a Banana Split every day, but claiming you are against ice cream.

  10. #10
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 01:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    8,805

    Re: God of Abraham: Fair and Just?

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHanging View Post
    So the priest class gave themselves an out when somebody asks too many questions.


    And all defenders/apologists of Christianity who don't know/have the answers nor can be otherwise found in Scripture. But if you truly believe in the catch-all response/answer to those inquiring minds, it's not really an "out". At least, not to those who are believers.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •