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Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

NWO_Spook said:
No, true scholarship would conflict with your overt confirmation bias, and I would expect nothing less from one that believes in the Global flood. Who are these atheist editors you assume exist and what is atheist dogma-a figment of your febrile imagination? Oh, sorry, you don't answer questions.

Anyway, my responses aren't for your benefit, but for those with enquiring minds.
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This is from Neanderthal genome project - Wikipedia

Overall, their results were remarkably similar. One group suggested there was a hint of mixing between human and Neanderthal genomes, while the other found none...

On the other hand, Noonan et al. found no evidence of Neanderthal admixture to the modern genome...

In February 2009, the Max Planck Institute's team... announced..."no significant trace of Neandertal genes in modern humans." ...

While Noonan et al. were unable to definitely conclude that interbreeding between the two species of humans did not occur, they proclaim little likelihood of it having occurred at any appreciable level.
 
NWO_Spook said:
Yes, but the article I posted was from 2014 citing a recent study (your sources span 2003-2008) and funnily enough, I can open it without a donation. So, you don't trust NG, but you thrice used it as a source. Did you not have to donate to read these?

Remember, I merely told you where the 20% figure came from did I not? I don't particularly care how much Neanderthal DNA can be found in modern human DNA for it is little consequence in regard to the topic.
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Although there is no proof of any admixture between Neanderthals and humans, estimates still range "from 0% to 20%." Detecting Ancient Admixture and Estimating Demographic Parameters in Multiple Human Populations | Molecular Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

"The current state of our knowledge concerning Neanderthals and their relationship to modern humans is largely inference and speculation based on archaeological data and a limited number of hominid remains."

Neanderthal Genome Sequencing Yields Surprising Results And Opens A New Door To Future Studies -- ScienceDaily
 
JustHanging said:
If that was true, you would throw your computer in the garbage. Because it was developed in part with information published in peer reviewed papers edited by atheists for compliance with science (Atheist dogma)

I wonder if you're a Christian of convenience, and are perfectly willing to accept atheist theories when it's convenient. Let's see if you ignore your own stated beliefs, and keep posting.
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My father-in-law was a devout Christian and a noted researcher in his scientific field for 50 years. You would no doubt not have many of the modern conveniences you now enjoy if not for Christians like him.
 
marke said:
This is from Neanderthal genome project - Wikipedia

Overall, their results were remarkably similar. One group suggested there was a hint of mixing between human and Neanderthal genomes, while the other found none...

On the other hand, Noonan et al. found no evidence of Neanderthal admixture to the modern genome...

In February 2009, the Max Planck Institute's team... announced..."no significant trace of Neandertal genes in modern humans." ...

While Noonan et al. were unable to definitely conclude that interbreeding between the two species of humans did not occur, they proclaim little likelihood of it having occurred at any appreciable level.
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You're quoting my post in response to your claim regarding peer reviewed historical papers (remember the conversation about the problems in Luke?). This is completely irrelevant to that point, but it does highlight the hypocrisy of your claim, that is, some malarkey about peer reviewed papers, as I see now they're ok.
 
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marke said:

Although there is no proof of any admixture between Neanderthals and humans, estimates still range "from 0% to 20%." Detecting Ancient Admixture and Estimating Demographic Parameters in Multiple Human Populations | Molecular Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

"The current state of our knowledge concerning Neanderthals and their relationship to modern humans is largely inference and speculation based on archaeological data and a limited number of hominid remains."

Neanderthal Genome Sequencing Yields Surprising Results And Opens A New Door To Future Studies -- ScienceDaily
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Read the last sentence of the post you quoted. Here, I'll post it again for you:

Remember, I merely told you where the 20% figure came from did I not? I don't particularly care how much Neanderthal DNA can be found in modern human DNA for it is little consequence in regard to the topic.

You seem to be having trouble comprehending my posts and perhaps that is why you don't answer questions? Focus!
 
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marke said:
My father-in-law was a devout Christian and a noted researcher in his scientific field for 50 years. You would no doubt not have many of the modern conveniences you now enjoy if not for Christians like him.
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Was he a young Earth creationist too?
 
NWO_Spook said:
Read the last sentence of the post you quoted. Here, I'll post it again for you:

Remember, I merely told you where the 20% figure came from did I not? I don't particularly care how much Neanderthal DNA can be found in modern human DNA for it is little consequence in regard to the topic.

You seem to be having trouble comprehending my posts and perhaps that is why you don't answer questions? Focus!
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The point is that science does not claim there is 20% contribution from Neanderthal genes in Human DNA. That is an estimate based upon conclusions drawn from data which is interpreted according to unproven assumptions. We should at least recognize the fact that these assumptions are not settled scientific facts.
 
NWO_Spook said:
Was he a young Earth creationist too?
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Absolutely. He worked for Battelle Institute in Columbus, OH for 50 years, has written technical books dealing with his field of science, and has obtained multiple patents for Battelle in his work.
 
marke said:
The point is that science does not claim there is 20% contribution from Neanderthal genes in Human DNA.
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Science doesn't claim anything, it was the findings of a study.

That is an estimate based upon conclusions drawn from data which is interpreted according to unproven assumptions.
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Have you demonstrated thus? You simply seem to have posted older links that claimed otherwise.

We should at least recognize the fact that these assumptions are not settled scientific facts.
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Have you demonstrated they are assumptions? I haven't seen that yet, not that I care, as I don't see why it is relevant to the topic.
 
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Angel said:
I get it. So there's no such thing as a disordered universe. And no such thing as a water-filled pothole in anything but an ordered universe. How does the impossibility of a disordered universe negate the watchmaker analogy?
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Questerr said:
It makes any question of "what" makes the universe ordered nonsensical. The universe by its definition must be ordered to exist. Just like a pothole has to be a hole in order to be a pothole. You can't have a flat pothole.
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Everything is what it is and not something else.
This is true.

What's more, some things are what they are necessarily.
This is also true.

But the truth of neither statement obviates the testament of design.
This is the third truth.

Angel said:
That the universe is ordered, that the universe must be ordered in order to exist, "makes any question of 'what' makes the universe ordered nonsensical"?
I don't follow your logic here at all. The question of the provenance of order arises from the very fact of order, it seems to me.
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Questerr said:
It's like asking "What makes circles round?" Or "What makes Hydrogen only have one proton and one neutron?"
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Angel said:
Everything is what it is and not something else.
This is true.

What's more, some things are what they are necessarily.
This is also true.

But the truth of neither statement obviates the testament of design.
This is the third truth.
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Your watchmaker argument falls apart as soon as someone asks you who made god. You immediately pull a 180 and say something so complicated couldn't have been designed by something else and never had a beginning. It's dishonest.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Your watchmaker argument falls apart as soon as someone asks you who made god. You immediately pull a 180 and say something so complicated couldn't have been designed by something else and never had a beginning. It's dishonest.
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That question, the question on the quivering lips of every Dawkinsian New Atheist and Internet Skeptic here in the forum, has been answered several times already. Nothing fell apart except the ecstatic lips of the aforementioned in a breathless "Ah!"
What you say I say is made up by you, by the way. Chew carefully on that straw.
 
Angel said:
That question, the question on the quivering lips of every Dawkinsian New Atheist and Internet Skeptic here in the forum, has been answered several times already. Nothing fell apart except the ecstatic lips of the aforementioned in a breathless "Ah!"
What you say I say is made up by you, by the way. Chew carefully on that straw.
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No, you changed your argument. You start with everything needs a creator then reverse and say oh except god. It's logically inconsistent and you know it is.
 
NWO_Spook said:
In what field?
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I cannot tell you exactly. He had degrees from Ohio State (with honors) in both mechanical and electrical engineering. His youngest son graduated with honors from Ohio State with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, is a retired fighter pilot and works in the aeronautical engineering field for a defense contractor. He is also a devoted Bible believing young earth creationist.

I have studied under Dr. Walt Brown, another devoted Bible believing creationist. He graduated from West Point, got a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering from MIT and taught at the Air Force Academy. He has also written excellent papers and books on geology and other science fields.
 
Angel said:
That question, the question on the quivering lips of every Dawkinsian New Atheist and Internet Skeptic here in the forum, has been answered several times already. Nothing fell apart except the ecstatic lips of the aforementioned in a breathless "Ah!"
What you say I say is made up by you, by the way. Chew carefully on that straw.
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That question cannot be answered. If the universe is too complex not to have been designed, what designed the designer?
 
marke said:
I cannot tell you exactly. He had degrees from Ohio State (with honors) in both mechanical and electrical engineering. His youngest son graduated with honors from Ohio State with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, is a retired fighter pilot and works in the aeronautical engineering field for a defense contractor. He is also a devoted Bible believing young earth creationist.

I have studied under Dr. Walt Brown, another devoted Bible believing creationist. He graduated from West Point, got a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering from MIT and taught at the Air Force Academy. He has also written excellent papers and books on geology and other science fields.
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So, it is in fields unrelated to the study of evolution and geology. I thought as much.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
No, you changed your argument. You start with everything needs a creator then reverse and say oh except god. It's logically inconsistent and you know it is.
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I changed nothing.
I start by observing that design implies designer and move on to observing design in the universe.
I do not start by observing or asking anything about God.
Your question about God is superfluous.
 
Angel said:
I changed nothing.
I start by observing that design implies designer and move on to observing design in the universe.
I do not start by observing or asking anything about God.
Your question about God is superfluous.
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Then if you're admitting we things don't need a designer then the universe doesn't either. You can't have it both ways. Who says the universe is a "design"? Why isn't god a "design"?
 
NWO_Spook said:
So, it is in fields unrelated to the study of evolution and geology. I thought as much.
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Are mechanical engineers ignorant about geology? Can people like you study what geologists have to say and become informed about geology? I studied what geologists said about the Channeled Scablands and found geologists disagree about the cause until satellite images helped those large numbers who were wrong about the cause admit they had been wrong for more than 50 years.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Then if you're admitting we things don't need a designer then the universe doesn't either. You can't have it both ways. Who says the universe is a "design"? Why isn't god a "design"?
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Who said no design was involved in the origin of the universe and life on earth? Do those people believe dumb ignorant luck somehow miraculous sparked a big bang of trillions of heavenly masses into perfect orbits from nothing and nowhere?
 
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