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Thread: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Not only are you wrong, you're completely out of line....
    Disagreed on both points. My point stands:
    Quote Originally Posted by Royal PITA View Post
    ...the Watchmaker theory has more validity behind it than the "modern" Christian beliefs in "the power of prayer" since it still allows for an all-powerful creator, but one who doesn't interfere in that creation. This explains why, much to the consternation of atheists, why tens of thousands can die in plagues and tsunamis despite all prayers for help.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Royal PITA View Post
    Disagreed on both points. My point stands:
    You have no point. You're just baiting.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    You have no point. You're just baiting.
    Disagreed....again. Again, my point is on topic and still stands. You can't refute it so you keep playing your false accusation game. Sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Royal PITA View Post
    ...the Watchmaker theory has more validity behind it than the "modern" Christian beliefs in "the power of prayer" since it still allows for an all-powerful creator, but one who doesn't interfere in that creation. This explains why, much to the consternation of atheists, why tens of thousands can die in plagues and tsunamis despite all prayers for help.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Royal PITA View Post
    Disagreed....again. Again, my point is on topic and still stands. You can't refute it so you keep playing your false accusation game. Sad.
    Refute what? Your calumny about my religious practice or your calumny about my conduct as a member of the forum?
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Refute what? Your calumny about my religious practice or your calumny about my conduct as a member of the forum?
    Wow. You keep trying to derail even though I keep trying to stay on topic.

    Please cite, precisely, these fanciful calumnies you are falsely claiming I made. I'll wait.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Moderator's Warning:
    Watchmaker Argument - DiscussionThe personal back and forth between a few posters, Royal PITA and Angel in particular, needs to stop now. You all are not the topic. Moderation, is not the topic. If you see a violation, report it, don't discuss or discuss reporting.

    Do not quote and reply to any post that violates this warning. Thread closed for 5 so the warning is noticed.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Moderator's Warning:
    Watchmaker Argument - DiscussionReopened. Please abide by the warning.
    “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.”

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Dawkins embellishes the special pleading:

    'To explain the origin of the DNA/protein machine by invoking a supernatural Designer is to explain precisely nothing, for it leaves unexplained the origin of the Designer. You have to say something like "God was always there", and if you allow yourself that kind of lazy way out, you might as well just say "DNA was always there", or "Life was always there", and be done with it.' The Blind Watchmaker, 1986
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by NWO_Spook View Post
    This is a perfect example of what I meant in another thread:

    Mere contrary assertion without demonstration, yet I adequately demonstrated why it is false. This response is meaningless.

    Obviously someone didn't read, or comprehend his explanation. Again, another assertion without any supporting evidence, yet the passage itself plainly espouses why the argument fails. This merely asserts the opposite of what is before your eyes, and you have the temerity to accuse Dawkins of contrarianism? The hypocrisy is blatant and I suggest you read it again:

    [Dawkins citation removed in order to fit the character limitation.]

    Can you not see the distinction he makes here, or does your prejudice regarding this man influence your judgment?

    Obviously I didn't miss the point, as I clearly provided a detailed examination of why the analogy is questionable, and it is quite telling that you failed to show why I supposedly failed. Why would I even consider such an empty response to have any validity? This is not debate, this is like a kid saying 'no it isn't' despite the evidence, and then sticking his fingers in his years while yelling 'nyah, nyah, nn, nyah, nyah'.

    You said absolutely nothing, and this would be the way of any future debate, and yet you wonder why I rejected your challenge. This form of debate is worthless and every attempt to debate with you is constantly littered with the same verbose, yet meaningless responses, and this is only one example of your weak style. Your challenge would be an exercise in futility owing to your tactics.
    Those "contrary assertions" are my opinions -- conclusions about Paley's, Dawkins', and your views reached by way of my reading and analysis of the watchmaker analogy. That analysis is offered in many posts in the course of the thread. Some are quoted below:
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    The assumption of the argument is that design implies a designer.
    The conclusion of the argument is that God exists.
    Where's the circle?
    Even if you retreat to the penultimate conclusion, namely, that the design of the universe implies a designer God, where is the circle?
    Who or what designed the designer?
    This is not part of the analogy and instead changes the subject.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    In both the cosmological argument and the watchmaker analogy argument, the whole point of the aeguments is to account for the existence of the universe. The "Everything has a cause" of the former argument and the "everything shows design" of the latter establish in each case the class of things that the argument attempts to account for. The class of things in both cases is the natural world, the universe. God does not belong to the class of things in need of explanation. God is not a member of the set these arguments set out to account for. To ask, at the conclusion of these arguments, the argument-question about a non-member of the set explained changes the subject -- it is an entirely different question which neither argument contemplates in its set-up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    I get it. So there's no such thing as a disordered universe. And no such thing as a water-filled pothole in anything but an ordered universe. How does the impossibility of a disordered universe negate the watchmaker analogy?
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    That the universe is ordered, that the universe must be ordered in order to exist, "makes any question of 'what' makes the universe ordered nonsensical"?
    I don't follow your logic here at all. The question of the provenance of order arises from the very fact of order, it seems to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    You think? I see a different universe from the one you see. I see sunrises and sunsets and seasons and orbits and revolutions and chemical bonding, etc. That some things are exploding does not seem to me to argue against the overall order. Basketball is an ordered game though there are fouls and missed free throws and a lot of improvisation within the rule-bound game. War appears chaotic to those caught in the crossfire and explosions but even war is an ordered affair.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Everything is what it is and not something else.
    This is true.

    What's more, some things are what they are necessarily.
    This is also true.

    But the truth of neither statement obviates the testament of design.
    This is the third truth.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Watchmaker analogy - Wikipedia

    Or: Teleological argument - Wikipedia

    So let's boil it down to the simplest form for the discussion. At least to start.

    The concept is rather clear:



    That which is complex, requires a design, which obviously implies something designed it.

    A watch doesn't exist without a designer.
    Therefore the Universe couldn't exist without a designer.

    First question right from the gate, if you presume the concept has merit, that a design implies a designer, why then jump to the conclusion (in the case of the universe/life as we know it) that the designer must be one specific "god"? Or any "god"/"gods" at all?

    Does the watchmaker analogy (in terms of God/universe/life) hold water, or fall apart rather quickly?
    How about this.... while we're so busy wondering about the watchmaker and the design of the watch he's making, we lose sight of the bigger picture. What's the purpose of the watch in the first place?

    All of the gears and springs and jewels and everything else that goes into a watch movement is an artificial construct that we build to measure something which exists regardless. The watch itself is just man's feeble attempt to explain something which is both undeniable and unexplainable. We're all aware of the passage of time.... building a watch doesn't change that, nor does it control it - it just gives us the illusion that we can.
    "He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know." --- Lao Tzu

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