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Thread: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    But everything complex requires a designer, according to the OP.
    I don’t know if God is complex.
    Just because I liked your post doesn’t mean I agree with you.

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Overitall View Post
    I don’t know if God is complex.
    A complex design needs a designer, implying the ability of said designer to design complexity, ergo the designer is complex.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHanging View Post
    Special pleading.

    If you can posit an infinite regress for a designer, then you can posit an infinite regress for the things claimed to be designed.
    I'm not making a claim that any of these are true. I'm only looking at possibilities, noting that there is much that we still don't know, and it is within this area that we lack knowledge that the answer is found. Furthermore, even infinity can be relative. To an ant, the desert can be an infinite expanse. Just because a terminus is outside our comprehension, does not mean it doesn't exist.

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Mistype. I meant in possibility.
    Fair enough.

    A possible thing might not be a probable thing, but is still possible.
    But your argument is that ID is the more probable explanation (see bolded):

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    It holds water in probability. ID does nothing to denote number or gender of said creators. Even if we go with the VR idea of our reality, the designers still fit the definition of deities, relative to us. The complexity and interaction of...well everything, certainly argues towards ID, but just because the odds of it all happening randomly are 1 in 10^100, doesn't mean that one time can't have occured.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Overitall View Post
    Probably not. We give names to people and things. So whatever conveys your understanding will work. We (Christians) call God our Father even though technically we have a biological father.
    I'd say that technically God doesn't even have a gender per sé. If God decided to make women first, we'd probably be calling Her Goddess, and have historically had matriarchal societies.

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    That which is complex, requires a design, which obviously implies something designed it.
    Nope. There is nothing obvious about that implication. Complexity does NOT imply a "mind" must have created it. Evolution explains things just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overitall View Post
    That’s probably why the designer is called God. His existence isn’t depended on the existence of something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Overitall View Post
    I don’t know if God is complex.
    Huh? You don't know if God who designed a complex universe is complex? Well...
    - if he IS complex, then according to OP and yourself, there must be some designer who designed God.
    - and if God is NOT complex, that breaks down your whole theory since you just admitted a simple thing can create complex things. So, we don't need a "designer" then.

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Watchmaker analogy - Wikipedia

    Or: Teleological argument - Wikipedia

    So let's boil it down to the simplest form for the discussion. At least to start.

    The concept is rather clear:



    That which is complex, requires a design, which obviously implies something designed it.

    A watch doesn't exist without a designer.
    Therefore the Universe couldn't exist without a designer.

    First question right from the gate, if you presume the concept has merit, that a design implies a designer, why then jump to the conclusion (in the case of the universe/life as we know it) that the designer must be one specific "god"? Or any "god"/"gods" at all?

    Does the watchmaker analogy (in terms of God/universe/life) hold water, or fall apart rather quickly?
    Intelligent design should imply plenty of life all over the Universe.

    We can assume intelligent life in every galaxy. How many galaxies are there and how can we communicate with intelligent life in a different galaxy? They may be more advanced than us, but the light from their civilization may be not be visible to us for a few more hundred or thousand years.

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I'm not making a claim that any of these are true. I'm only looking at possibilities, noting that there is much that we still don't know, and it is within this area that we lack knowledge that the answer is found.
    None of that changes the fact that the argument requires special pleading. The premise says nothing about possibilities, or about things we don't know. It makes a simple statement:

    "Something can't come from nothing."

    That is either true or false. Currently theists are arguing that this premise is true, but then use special pleading to say god might have come from nothing. If not, they would have to include a provable premise in the argument stating where god came from.

    Furthermore, even infinity can be relative. To an ant, the desert can be an infinite expanse. Just because a terminus is outside our comprehension, does not mean it doesn't exist.
    That's nice, but the ant would be wrong. When we use the word infinity, can we agree to use it's mathematical definition?
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHanging View Post
    The premise is: "Something can't come from nothing." It says nothing about whether it came from a known existence.

    Special pleading. Or make a new argument.
    By some people's logic, if it can't be proved, it doesn't exist, therefore is nothing. It doesn't matter if it really exists. All things discovered, existed before they were discovered. But they were considered at the time to not have existed. A designer won't have come from nothing, but because we haven't discovered that source, it is considered nothing.

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    From our very limited experience as humans it’s obvious that as complexity in design increases, the absolute need for multiple designers increases as well.

    Think Space Shuttle for example. Would you sign up to fly in the Space Shuttle if there was only one designer of that entire operation? It’s virtually impossible to even conceive of the idea that one person could put that whole thing together.

    Now consider the Universe. Consider the possibility of more than one universe.

    Why, if we’re going to insist there’s intelligent design of something of a concept that grand and complex, do we also chose to insist just ONE entity designed it?

    You know, besides the fact that a few books written 1000's of years ago state something along those lines.

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