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Thread: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

  1. #341
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by NWO_Spook View Post
    So, it is in fields unrelated to the study of evolution and geology. I thought as much.
    It's amazing how often the Dr. being quoted by creationists is a dentist.
    Supporting Trump, but claiming you are against racism...is like eating a Banana Split every day, but claiming you are against ice cream.

  2. #342
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    You know what they call this? An appeal to authority fallacy. Do you know that it lacks?

    Evidence.

    There is zero evidence of this sky daddy. None, nadda, zilch, zippo. May as well say the Tooth Fairy did it.
    If we're going to believe storybook characters like God-Jesus actually exist, I prefer to put my trust in the existence of Harry Potter. He hasn't committed genocide on multiple occasions like the maniac in the bible.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    I don't need to abandon anything. I am happy knowing God created the universe just like He said. It remains the problem of atheists to come up with a reasonable alternative explanation for the sudden emergence from nothing and nowhere the trillions of massive orbs in the universe.
    So because mankind doesn't currently know what started the Big Bang, you think giving storybook characters like Harry Potter and/or God-Jesus credit for creating everything makes sense.

    Why?
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    There are a number of false claims that are part of the premise there.

    The first one is 'all design implies a designer'. That is false. . Starting there, all else after that fails.
    Really, think of anything, it had to have a designer

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by TypicalRussian View Post
    Really, think of anything, it had to have a designer
    Does each and every snowflake have a designer?



    I suggest picking up a book on natural selection. You'd be amazed at what you'll learn.
    "Don't blame me. Sending down plagues is god's thing." -- Satan 2020

  6. #346
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Watchmaker analogy - Wikipedia

    Or: Teleological argument - Wikipedia

    So let's boil it down to the simplest form for the discussion. At least to start.

    The concept is rather clear:



    That which is complex, requires a design, which obviously implies something designed it.

    A watch doesn't exist without a designer.
    Therefore the Universe couldn't exist without a designer.

    First question right from the gate, if you presume the concept has merit, that a design implies a designer, why then jump to the conclusion (in the case of the universe/life as we know it) that the designer must be one specific "god"? Or any "god"/"gods" at all?

    Does the watchmaker analogy (in terms of God/universe/life) hold water, or fall apart rather quickly?
    "God", "Watchmaker", "Almighty", "The Force", "Hogwarts", etc are all just place-holder names for the unknown force of Creation.

    Cosmologists call the unknown force behind the acceleration of Universe expansion "dark energy". They now the Universe is expanding but do not understand the force that is cause it. Cosmologists also have calculated the mass of the Universe and have determined that 85% of it is unseen meaning it's not the galaxies, stars, planets and such that they can see. The common name for this matter is "Dark Matter". Both "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter" placeholder names for an unknown force.

    I don't know the force behind creation. All I know is that it happened. If someone wants to call that unknown force "God", "Yahweh" or simply disbelieves it exists, that's fine with me since I have no evidence to refute them. All I know is that the Universe exists, that it has a definite beginning and a foreseeable end.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by TypicalRussian View Post
    Really, think of anything, it had to have a designer
    OK, who designed an earthquake, a hurricane, a tornado or a thunder/hail storm? Somehow, the resulting damage is attributed to an "act of God".
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    Don't get distracted by contemplating God from a position of ignorance until you first come up with a reasonable solution for the miraculous origin of the universe.
    How do you know the creation of our universe is, or was miraculous?
    Have you compared our universe to others?
    Do you know of a non-miraculous universe that you can show as the standard?
    Maybe ours is just a random, everyday simple universe, and the truly miraculous ones are completely unknown to us at this time.

    In fact, how do you know our universe isn't complete trash and something that's just been discarded like and old empty beer can in the back of a pickup truck?
    Maybe the black holes are sort of like Universe Roomba or iRobot vacuum cleaners? Just constantly cleaning up the mess? A few trillion years from now the mess will be all gone.

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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Does each and every snowflake have a designer?

    https://www.thephotoargus.com/wp-con...nowflake12.jpg

    I suggest picking up a book on natural selection. You'd be amazed at what you'll learn.
    You think snowflakes "evolve"?

    As for snowflakes, and everything else, all conform to the laws of physics. In keeping with the OP, if a watchmaker makes a watch then walks away, asking if the watchmaker makes every second tick off is to misunderstand the nature of the watch. (the answer is "no, he doesn't", of course)

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK, who designed an earthquake, a hurricane, a tornado or a thunder/hail storm? Somehow, the resulting damage is attributed to an "act of God".
    Same reply. The Laws of physics. So where did those laws originate? With the Big Bang. What caused the Big Bang? IDK.
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    Re: Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Royal PITA View Post
    "God", "Watchmaker", "Almighty", "The Force", "Hogwarts", etc are all just place-holder names for the unknown force of Creation.

    Cosmologists call the unknown force behind the acceleration of Universe expansion "dark energy". They now the Universe is expanding but do not understand the force that is cause it. Cosmologists also have calculated the mass of the Universe and have determined that 85% of it is unseen meaning it's not the galaxies, stars, planets and such that they can see. The common name for this matter is "Dark Matter". Both "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter" placeholder names for an unknown force.

    I don't know the force behind creation. All I know is that it happened. If someone wants to call that unknown force "God", "Yahweh" or simply disbelieves it exists, that's fine with me since I have no evidence to refute them. All I know is that the Universe exists, that it has a definite beginning and a foreseeable end.
    All good, except so many folks wish to go quite a few steps farther and assign all kinds of other attributes to that force.
    A personality. Anger. Vengeance. Love for some. Hate for others. Eternal Reward. Eternal Punishment.....and then they want to convince/force others to accept those attributes as facts and follow specific rules and laws and morals...

    You see where that starts to go right?

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