But, but where could God come from

TypicalRussian said:

Whenever a theist brings up the Cosmological argument, an atheist always has to step up and say "well where did God come from"

But there is a big difference between an observable thing and a God.

Where did God come from? Don’t we have to assume that if there is God, then there must have been something before Him that created Him?

These questions assume that everything, including God, is subject to the limitation of time and space, an assumption that the scientific community has questioned and virtually dismissed since Albert Einstein first published his special theory of relativity in 1905.

Einstein demonstrated how time and space are not absolute and that the perception of time is dependent on one’s frame of reference. For example, he showed how the rate of a moving clock would appear to decrease as its velocity increases. Even absolute time has been excluded from modern physical reasoning because it cannot be measured by human means. This widely accepted scientific postulate suggests that the common frame of reference that all things originate and operate within the context of fixed time and space — that nothing, therefore, exists outside of time and space — is not necessarily correct.

While this context does not make the concept of eternality a simple notion to grasp, the facts do make it easier to accept the biblical teaching that God does in fact exist outside of time and space as we know them. And Einstein’s theory only seems to corroborate the biblical perspective of time:

“For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night” (Psalm 90:4).

“He is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17).

“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” (2 Peter 3:8).
To accept that God exists outside the framework of time and space as we know it renders any question of what came before Him irrelevant. These questions might be legitimate if God is subject to our constraints of perception, which He is not. The Bible teaches that God is not bound by time or space, and that He simply has not chosen to reveal to us all that took place before He created the universe.

Where did God come from? - bethinking.org

This is a good point and a defense to a bad atheist rebuttal of the cosmological argument

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TypicalRussian said:

Einstein demonstrated how time and space are not absolute and that the perception of time is dependent on one’s frame of reference. For example, he showed how the rate of a moving clock would appear to decrease as its velocity increases. Even absolute time has been excluded from modern physical reasoning because it cannot be measured by human means. This widely accepted scientific postulate suggests that the common frame of reference that all things originate and operate within the context of fixed time and space — that nothing, therefore, exists outside of time and space — is not necessarily correct.

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To achieve this level of precision, the clock ticks from the GPS satellites must be known to an accuracy of 20-30 nanoseconds. However, because the satellites are constantly moving relative to observers on the Earth, effects predicted by the Special and General theories of Relativity must be taken into account to achieve the desired 20-30 nanosecond accuracy.

Because an observer on the ground sees the satellites in motion relative to them, Special Relativity predicts that we should see their clocks ticking more slowly (see the Special Relativity lecture). Special Relativity predicts that the on-board atomic clocks on the satellites should fall behind clocks on the ground by about 7 microseconds per day because of the slower ticking rate due to the time dilation effect of their relative motion [2].

Further, the satellites are in orbits high above the Earth, where the curvature of spacetime due to the Earth's mass is less than it is at the Earth's surface. A prediction of General Relativity is that clocks closer to a massive object will seem to tick more slowly than those located further away (see the Black Holes lecture). As such, when viewed from the surface of the Earth, the clocks on the satellites appear to be ticking faster than identical clocks on the ground. A calculation using General Relativity predicts that the clocks in each GPS satellite should get ahead of ground-based clocks by 45 microseconds per day.

The combination of these two relativitic effects means that the clocks on-board each satellite should tick faster than identical clocks on the ground by about 38 microseconds per day

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HIP56948 said:

Bill Maher comes to mind: Hey, if God was to show up at the Superbowl at halftime, two things will happen> Number One.. Madonna is gonna' be pissed! and two..I'll look at him and say "Well, Praise the Lord"

Also, in a lot of trillions of years from now, our universe will be completely empty. No particles, black holes, etc..nothing. At the present time, there is no such thing as "Nothing". Particles come into existence etc. Anyway, when the universe truly dies, will your God still be here?

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RAMOSS said:

The main thing is that it is pointing out the logical fallacy of the theist for the technique known as 'speical pleading'. The OP is a horrible attempt to divert away from the bad logic of 'because God'.

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TypicalRussian said:

what bad logic? God is defined in the Bible:roll:

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TypicalRussian said:

what bad logic? God is defined in the Bible:roll:

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RAMOSS said:

And?? The special pleading comes in where it gives god properties not given to anything else, like 'eternal'. Plus, the bible says what God did, not what is God. Can you define god about what God is, not by actions that are attributed to god?

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RAMOSS said:

And?? The special pleading comes in where it gives god properties not given to anything else, like 'eternal'. Plus, the bible says what God did, not what is God. Can you define god about what God is, not by actions that are attributed to god?

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zyzygy said:

Lord Krishna is defined in the Gita. By your logic all holy books are true and all gods exist.

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TypicalRussian said:

God is the greatest thing ever conceived so it makes sense why nothing else is at his level, otherwise it would be God, but there is only one God

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RAMOSS said:

That is insufficient. That is vague, with absolutely no semantic value what so ever. Do you have anything that actually has meaning? Do you have something other than religious ranting and speculation?

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RAMOSS said:

That is insufficient. That is vague, with absolutely no semantic value what so ever. Do you have anything that actually has meaning? Do you have something other than religious ranting and speculation?

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TypicalRussian said:

Whenever a theist brings up the Cosmological argument, an atheist always has to step up and say "well where did God come from"

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TypicalRussian said:

Can you not comprehend simple logic?

The Bible defines God as the greatest being ever conceived and there is no other being as great as him, therefore there can not be any other being or object that is as great as The God of the Bible.

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TypicalRussian said:

You said nothing else is eternal in the Bible, right and that is why

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Praxas said:

That may be one comment that gets said very rarely, but in reality most atheists bring up the fact that the bible, which defined who God is, was written by MAN. So you first have to assume that the Christian bible, amongst all other religious texts and interpretations, is correct and the others are wrong. That right there is a huge assumption and simply doesn't pass the smell test. Until you can prove that the Christian god is real, and all others are false, no other reasons for atheists need to be given. That is why religion is FAITH and not FACT.

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RAMOSS said:

You are not being clear. Also, why should the bible matter.?? Can you show it's true?

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TypicalRussian said:

Are you kidding Me? Every single atheist I know brings this argument up.

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The people who wrote the Bible were INSPIRED by God, that is why they can define him well.

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Faith is simply believing without seeing but there is plenty of evidence for Christianity especially Christ's resurrection when even Secular scholars admit that the storm on Friday did happen.

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TypicalRussian said:

I can show it's true. The Bible is correct-

The Bible has got space and the universe correct time and time again,even going against current scientific theories at the time. There is massive credit that needs to be given to the Bible. They are lots of examples. Let’s take Isaiah 40:22 for example which states-”It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:.”Ths description is fitting, the Earth is a circle viewed from the heavens and space. Today we know that the Earth is Round, Satellite images from NASA has confirmed this fact as well as the Biblical quoteFurthermore, Ancient Scientists and well rounded educated people after the 6th Century B.C(599-500) thought the Earth was round with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere.However, the Book of Isaiah was written in the 8th Century BC making it the first historical account which talked about a round Earth.[LINK],[LINK],[LINK]

The Bible also says that the Earth floats in space on nothing. Consider Job 26:7 which states:”He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.”We now know today that yes, the Earth does hang on nothing. It is freely orbiting around the sun. To prove that the Bible has been correct, the ancient Greeks in the Bronze age when the Book of Job was written.[LINK] believed that the ancient God Titan Atlas held the Earth on his back.[LINK] The Bible has been correct before modern science could confirm it. Ancient people of God was correct while other ancient people without the Christian God were wrong.

The Universe is Expanding and The Bible got it right. Let’s take Isaiah 40:22 again-”it is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:”
This verse also proves that the universe is expanding, basically saying that God has expanded the universe, and spread them out further. We now know today that yes, the universe is
expanding. This fact was proven by the Hubble Space Telescope in 1929.[LINK} The New York Times reports:

“In an expanding universe, the further something is away from you, the faster it is receding. Hubble’s constant tells by how much.But measuring it requires divining the distances of lights in the sky — stars and even whole galaxies that we can never visit or recreate in the lab. The strategy since Hubble’s day has been to find so-called standard candles, stars or whole galaxies whose distances can be calculated by how bright they look from Earth.”[LINK]

The Book of Isaiah was written in the 8th Century B.C, doing some math that means that the people inspired by the Christian God and the Bible knew about the expanding universe 2,629 years before it was officially discovered, this calculation was done by online-calculator[LINK]

Genesis 22:17 states-”I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies.” Genesis 32:12 states the same thing. God has multiplied the offspring of the world based on his creation,the stars. Ancient astronomers such as Claudius Ptolemy thought that there was 1,022 stars.Obviously we know that this is not true. Estimates now are around ten to the 21st power.Another scientific fact confirming the Bible.[LINK]

How great is the Bible that God and his people knew about Astronomical facts. God’s greatness is amazing when you get down to it.

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RAMOSS said:

My gosh, there is both a lot of unsupported claims and misinformation in that post. WHen it come sot Isiah 40:22, you know that a 'circle' is flat, don't you? If Isiaih meant a ball, he would have used the hebrew word Duar, which specifically means ball. As it is, the word used is like a compass on a flat piece of paper.

So much bad information, so little time. You must hate the bible to lie about what it says.

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TypicalRussian said:

Circle does not mean flat

khug in hebrew has to have 3d quality about it

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TypicalRussian said:

Circle does not mean flat

khug in hebrew has to have 3d quality about it

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The Hebrew word in question is khûg (חוּג) which is also found in Job 22:14 where, in many Bible versions, it is translated ‘vault’. For example, the New American Standard Bible reads, “Clouds are a hiding place for Him, so that He cannot see; and He walks on the vault of heaven.” Clearly ‘vault’ carries the sense of something three-dimensional and is given as the primary meaning of khûg in the well-known Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon.1 In modern Hebrew, a sphere is denoted by khûg, along with kaddur, galgal, and mazzal.2 In Arabic (another Semitic language), kura means ball and is the word used in the Van Dyck-Boustani Arabic Bible (1865) to translate khûg in Isaiah 40:22.

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