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the idea, that only a few will be saved and all the rest will go to hell

If he gave into temptation, there would be no innocence to sacrifice.
He didnt sacrifice his innocence in your explanation though. It isnt a sacrifice if he didnt lose that innocence. Simply dying wouldn't make a person lose their innocence. And he would have had his innocence ul till he lost it, gave into temptation.

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Not if you look at other religions too. Some other religions simply believe either a positive afterlife or none. Others believe in karmic reincarnation, which is a pretty kind afterlife based on merit. Others believe in reincarnation that builds to Nirvana. Still others believe in a soul learning, growing even in the afterlife, interacting with people on earth.

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I said denomination, but I would hold that a free second chance at the promised land is better than a judged reincarnation that could have bad results.

And I bring my candidate as a challenger to your remark regarding Mormons.
 
He didnt sacrifice his innocence in your explanation though. It isnt a sacrifice if he didnt lose that innocence. Simply dying wouldn't make a person lose their innocence. And he would have had his innocence ul till he lost it, gave into temptation.

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Innocence, His innocence, is sacrificed. He serves as the scapegoat (the goat of OT ceremony), our sins going with him. There are many allusions to such in the OT. Many many. The picture is crystal clear.

It's not about loss. It's about innocence.
 
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I said denomination, but I would hold that a free second chance at the promised land is better than a judged reincarnation that could have bad results.

And I bring my candidate as a challenger to your remark regarding Mormons.
My comment there began with "one of the few Christian sects...". Most Christians do not believe as you described, that everyone will be given a second chance after Christ returns. (I have no idea what you mean by "witnesses". Is that supposed to be a specific denomination of Christianity?)

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My comment there began with "one of the few Christian sects...". Most Christians do not believe as you described, that everyone will be given a second chance after Christ returns. (I have no idea what you mean by "witnesses". Is that supposed to be a specific denomination of Christianity?)

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Jehovah's Witnesses.

As I noted in edit, above, but you might have missed as it was late: I've never believed anything supernatural. I study the Bible as one would a novel.
 
Innocence, His innocence, is sacrificed. He serves as the scapegoat (the goat of OT ceremony), our sins going with him. There are many allusions to such in the OT. Many many. The picture is crystal clear.

It's not about loss. It's about innocence.
You are not making any sense at all. He didnt lose his innocence. You said so yourself, that he didnt give into temptation. So he didnt sacrifice anything in living here on Earth except a little time away from heaven and space from living humans.

The picture is far more opaque than you believe. It is only that you have your beliefs in what us meant by Jesus being sacrificed and then try to make everything fit that belief.

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He didnt sacrifice his innocence in your explanation though. It isnt a sacrifice if he didnt lose that innocence. Simply dying wouldn't make a person lose their innocence. And he would have had his innocence ul till he lost it, gave into temptation.

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He suffered the effect of sin without sinning. That's why it's a sacrifice. Just like the goat of ancient Judea ceremony sent into the desert (the origin of "scapegoat").
 
He suffered the effect of sin without sinning. That's why it's a sacrifice.
There is no evidence of that happening though. It really wouldn't even be possible to prove such a thing. It couldnt even be observed on our level as humans. So then it would be only an assumption or belief, not something provable.

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There is no evidence of that happening though. It really wouldn't even be possible to prove such a thing. It couldnt even be observed on our level as humans. So then it would be only an assumption or belief, not something provable.

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I think I've missed you twice in attempting to edit now. This time I'll include my note before hitting 'post'.

I have never, ever, believed anything supernatural, nothing. I study the Bible as one would a novel.

PS. See edits, above, for a little extra info. I edit a lot.
 
Christians love it because it makes them feel better now thinking that everyone who's wronged them or refused to pick their particular religion will get their view of cosmic justice.

Paradoxically the same people pretend that they worship a "merciful" god, yet relish in the idea that many of their friends and family will be tortured in excruciating agony for eternity and that same god could stop it but won't. That doesn't sound like mercy or redemption.

This sounds exactly like the kid who is bullied for years and finally one day comes to school with a gun to "show them all".

Some of the most hateful spew I see here is from some of the most ardent "Christians".

It just isn't Christians either, Muslims share that hate too. There is just so much pent up hatred of those who don't believe like them.
 
@ the idea, that only a few will be saved and all the rest will go to hell

I find this idea deeply inhuman and also deeply un-Christian
How can anyone believe such rubbish?

This self-righteous Idea of some, that they will be saved and the great majority will go to hell - is it not terribly arrogant?
And I do not think that Jesus likes it, when some "Elite"-Christians believe such rubbish.

And I think that these "Better-Christians" will be in for an unpleasant surprise in "the other world" - in case there is one.

And how do you think about it?

Why do you think you would/should be saved if you denied God to his face?
 
Question: "Will more people go to heaven or to hell?"

Those who preach a gospel of inclusiveness where “all ways lead to heaven” preach an utterly different gospel than the one Jesus preached. The gate of self-centeredness, self-absorption, and a proud, holier-than-thou mindset is the wide gate of the world that leads to hell, not the narrow gate that leads to eternal life. As a result, most people spend their lives following the masses who are on the broad road, doing what everyone else does and believing what everyone else believes.

Will more people go to heaven or to hell? | GotQuestions.org

For me it is those fanatical minority of fundamentalists who think that they are "holier than thou".
 
@ the idea, that only a few will be saved and all the rest will go to hell

I find this idea deeply inhuman and also deeply un-Christian
How can anyone believe such rubbish?

This self-righteous Idea of some, that they will be saved and the great majority will go to hell - is it not terribly arrogant?
And I do not think that Jesus likes it, when some "Elite"-Christians believe such rubbish.

And I think that these "Better-Christians" will be in for an unpleasant surprise in "the other world" - in case there is one.

And how do you think about it?

Its worse if you are a Jehova's Witless, only 144,000 go to heaven, small odds considering all the people who have died in the last 10,000 or so years....

Silly religions, just turning people into mindless zealots.
 
Only your logic. Bear in mind that a few are infinitely more than none.

It is far from a perfect analogy, but consider a chemist. She prepares her reagents, readies the vessel, initiates the reaction. Once all that is completed, what remains? She needs to separate the desired product from everything else. The Bible even compares God to a refiner's fire.

Well, that is in no way literal but a metaphor...
 
It is far from a perfect analogy, but consider a chemist. She prepares her reagents, readies the vessel, initiates the reaction. Once all that is completed, what remains? She needs to separate the desired product from everything else. The Bible even compares God to a refiner's fire.

I see.
Those "Better-Christians" are gold, and all we other human beings are rubbish to be thrown away.
So now we know ....
 
Personally I dont understand the claim if him being sacrificed. The only sacrifice Jesus made (if the story is true at all) was time away from God (but they still communicated) and potentially his innocence about humans. He was resurrected into heaven. So he has in fact (and according to any theory of living for eternity will for many times longer) be in heaven far longer than his time on earth, by many, many lifetimes. He is with God now according to the narrative, so it couldnt be a true sacrifice. If he were doomed to preside in hell or even purgatory, preaching to the sinners of those places until at least Armageddon, then I might be able to concede a sacrifice. But that isnt how the story reads.

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There was a lot placed on Jesus' shoulders...he willingly lowered himself to become a man as he slaved for imperfect humans, teaching and healing them...throughout his earthly life, Jesus maintained perfect obedience to Jehovah’s righteous standards...there was no temptation or trial​...not even the prospect of an agonizing death could weaken his desire to defend his Father’s way of ruling...Philippians 2:8...though innocent, he accepted ridicule and torture...when faced with these tests, Jesus prayed “with strong outcries and tears"...Hebrews 5:7...so yes, it was at great sacrifice to him...
 
Witnesses don't believe in hell. They believe everyone will be resurrected at the second coming and receive a second chance to decide to follow Christ as he rules in person for a thousand years with Satan locked away and not tempting man. Those that choose not to be with Christ will cease to exist, no torment.

True...many will receive their 1st chance because they've never heard of Jesus...
 
But he was supposed to be God in another form so he knew what it was, couldnt truly be innocent. Unless he really wasnt God.

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Exactly...he wasn't God, he was God's son...
 
@ the idea, that only a few will be saved and all the rest will go to hell

I find this idea deeply inhuman and also deeply un-Christian
How can anyone believe such rubbish?

This self-righteous Idea of some, that they will be saved and the great majority will go to hell - is it not terribly arrogant?
And I do not think that Jesus likes it, when some "Elite"-Christians believe such rubbish.

And I think that these "Better-Christians" will be in for an unpleasant surprise in "the other world" - in case there is one.

And how do you think about it?

Finding something unpleasant does not make it false.
 
We are all gods sons and daughters according to the bible.

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No, it all depends on who you serve...some are Satan's sons and daughters...

"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." John 8:44
 
Finding something unpleasant does not make it false.

@ And I think that these "Better-Christians" will be in for an unpleasant surprise in "the other world" - in case there is one.

So you are of the same opinion than I! :)
 
the idea, that only a few will be saved and all the rest will go to hell
This was the idea of John Knox and John Calvin - and some other unpleasant characters ....
 
No, it all depends on who you serve...some are Satan's sons and daughters...

"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." John 8:44
Lol, no. Jesus said that humans are the sons and daughters of god.

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Lol, no. Jesus said that humans are the sons and daughters of god.

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Jesus also said John 8:44...
 
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