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Thread: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Quote Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post
    Whatever exactly Hell is...….. we'll still feel the kind of torment that comes with eternal punishment.



    What Does the Bible Say About Eternal Punishment?



    That those cast in hell will feel the torment, certainly shows that they're still around.
    Only man desires to see another man suffer forever for his sins...

    Jehovah God says burning a person is something detestable that He would never desire to do...

    "Furthermore, they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through [the fire] to Molech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing, for the purpose of making Judah sin.’" Jeremiah 32:35
    "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. " Romans 8:20,21

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvira View Post
    Only man desires to see another man suffer forever for his sins...
    It has nothing to do with man's desires. IT IS WRITTEN.


    Numerous verses speaks outright of eternal punishment.


    What Does the Bible Say About Eternal Punishment?






    Jehovah God says burning a person is something detestable that He would never desire to do...
    He didn't say that. You're adding. You're putting words in His mouth.

    As you quoted below, here is what He said:

    ……...a thing that I did not command them


    neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing





    He wasn't talking about punishments. Burning people as sacrificial offering to Him - that's what He's referring to.

    He never made it a requirement to burn people as sacrificial offering to Him - He find that detestable.

    Big difference.





    We don't know exactly if burning is to be literally taken -

    but we can be sure (because GOD HAS REPEATEDLY SAID SO), whatever and however hell is going to be like, it will be a place, or a state of suffering.






    "Furthermore, they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through [the fire] to Molech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing, for the purpose of making Judah sin.’" Jeremiah 32:35
    irrelevant.

    You're taking it out of context.
    This is about a pagan practice of worship, which Judah had participated in.
    Last edited by tosca1; 01-12-20 at 09:22 AM.

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Quote Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post
    It has nothing to do with man's desires. It is written.


    Numerous verses speaks outright of eternal punishment.


    What Does the Bible Say About Eternal Punishment?








    He didn't say that. You're adding. You're putting words in His mouth.

    As you quoted below, here is what He said:

    ……...a thing that I did not command them


    neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing



    Burning people as sacrificial offering to Him - that's what He's referring to.

    Big difference.





    We don't know exactly if burning is to be literally taken - but we can be sure (because GOD HAS REPEATEDLY SAID SO), whatever and however hell is going to be like, it will be a place, or a state of suffering.






    irrelevant.

    You're taking it out of context. This is about a pagan practice of worship, which Judah participated in.
    No, it is not...

    What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek baʹsa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.
    Hell — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
    "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. " Romans 8:20,21

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    For the ease of discussion, lets say that the human life span is 100 years. Most less, but some more, so it's just easy to call it a nice round 100.

    Now I know it's impossible, but picture a timeline that represents eternity.

    How small of a dot would that 100 year human life span be on the timeline of eternity? A microdot? A millidot? A pecodot? Could the human eye even detect that dot?
    Probably not right?

    So why then would a god that's dealing with time in eternal parameters judge, and condemn or reward an eternal existence to another entity based solely on that 100 years of Earth life?

    Or a better question might be why would a "loving god" do that? I think we could all understand that a bitter savage god might do such a thing.

    This becomes even more of a quandary when thinking about the random chance/luck around how, when, where, and to whom one is born.

    The human that is born into a North Korean existence is going to have a much different opportunity at life and it's questions than the human born into a North American existence. Correct?

    The human born into a 12th century existence vs the one born today.
    The human born into a Islamic culture vs the one born into a Hindu culture vs the one born into a Mormon culture.
    The human born with drug addictions and poverty vs the one born to truly caring and loving parents with wealth.

    All these things shape and direct how and what a person will learn and believe in their very short lifetime. Yet we're supposed to believe they'll be judged and condemned/rewarded, for all eternity, on/for things that are completely out of their control?

    Why would a loving god punish a human for eternity who was born, raised, and then died devoutly believing in a Hindu culture when that's all he/she knew?

    How does one justify the rationality that your eternal condition is based solely and only on the 100 (probably less) years you spend on Earth?
    Figuring in that your time on Earth has so many variables that are completely out of your own control.
    i guess people dont want to be dead forever and live in an uncaring universe so some of em will think up any kind of bull crap

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvira View Post
    No, it is not...


    This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ)
    Hell — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Are you serious? JW gives ECC 9 as proof?

    Just look at the title of its subject! A common destiny for all!


    COMMON DESTINIY indeed!
    You say you end up too where non-believers go?

    If that's the case - JW sounds like all the non-believers we argue with in this forum!
    That may be why JW agree you'd all have a common destiny with non-believers!!



    Here, read it all - don't just cherry-pick.




    Ecclesiastes 9

    A Common Destiny for All

    9 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God’s hands, but no one knows whether love or hate awaits them.
    2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.
    As it is with the good,
    so with the sinful;
    as it is with those who take oaths,
    so with those who are afraid to take them.
    3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
    5
    For the living know that they will die,
    but the dead know nothing;
    they have no further reward,
    and even their name is forgotten.
    6
    Their love, their hate
    and their jealousy have long since vanished;
    never again will they have a part
    in anything that happens under the sun.
    7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
    11 I have seen something else under the sun:
    The race is not to the swift
    or the battle to the strong,
    nor does food come to the wise
    or wealth to the brilliant
    or favor to the learned;
    but time and chance happen to them all.
    12 Moreover, no one knows when their hour will come:
    As fish are caught in a cruel net,
    or birds are taken in a snare,
    so people are trapped by evil times
    that fall unexpectedly upon them.









    The key to understanding the statement “the dead know nothing” is found in the theme of the book of Ecclesiastes.

    Ecclesiastes is written specifically from an earthly perspective.

    The key phrase, repeated throughout the book, is under the sun, used about thirty times.
    Solomon is commenting on an earth-bound life, “under the sun,” without God.

    His conclusion, also repeated throughout the book, is that everything from that perspective is “vanity” or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2).


    When a person dies “under the sun,” the earthly perspective, without God, is that it’s over. He is no longer under the sun. There is no more knowledge to give or be given, just a grave to mark his remains. Those who have died have “no further reward” in this life; they no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living.
    Eventually, “even their name is forgotten” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
    What does it mean that the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5)? | GotQuestions.org
    Last edited by tosca1; 01-12-20 at 09:53 AM.

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Quote Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post
    A criminal gets judged by a court judge, based on the law.
    Whether the criminal fully understands the law or not, he's still going to be judged according to the standard of the minds who'd set the laws!

    We can agree with the judgement or not, or go through all the process of protesting and appealing, or have a fit before the judge - but, eventually,
    the judgment of the court will still be carried out!


    So.....having given an analogy that perhaps you can relate it with, surely we don't blame the judge for our own stupidity (of breaking the law, or for our own ignorance
    of the law)?



    Furthermore.....the notch is raised even higher when we talk about God.


    How is it absurd for a Creator to do exactly as He pleased to His Creations?

    We say it is "absurd" because...………….. we either can't fully grasp the concept of GOD/CREATOR...…………... or we resent our helplessness before Him.
    It's like kids sticking their tongues out at authority they can't buck. That's normal for non-believers, I suppose.








    Pardon me for asking: who's putting a gun to your head?


    Why are you so troubled about having to decide...….if you don't believe?
    What is it to you whatever the Bible says...….if you don't believe in the Christian God?

    Now, that's what I find so absurd.


    And......to borrow from Calamity...…...that, is the freaking contradiction often shown by non-believers!








    Blame society then!

    Don't blame the God...……………….. you don't believe exists!

    That's absurd.
    Who's putting the gun to my head????? Your god, that's who.

    And what law? Where is it written? The bible? The Qur'an? Both? How the hell are we supposed to know? Yet if we don't, it's off to hell for us. Yes, absurd.
    - See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.
    - The absence of hostilities does not prove the absence of hostility.
    - Legitimate criticism is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence.
    - I choose my words very, very, VERY carefully. - Jordan Peterson.

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Why would a loving god punish a human for eternity who was born, raised, and then died devoutly believing in a Hindu culture when that's all he/she knew?
    How does one justify the rationality that your eternal condition is based solely and only on the 100 (probably less) years you spend on Earth?
    Figuring in that your time on Earth has so many variables that are completely out of your own control.
    [/QUOTE]

    If we knew more of what took place prior to our existence and what took place with God prior to our existence then we could answer the question with real logic and reasoning. Which is why there are 20,000 Christian Churches with different doctrines. They don't begin at the exact same point of understanding. So, your question will be answered based on what each person understands about God, man and the universe. We need to know what our Father in Heaven's plan is and how and why we fit into His plan. But, you can't just make up your own plan. Churches and religions have parts of the plan and some of the information. Is there on Church that has the true knowledge concerning God's plan for happiness for his children. And, who and what are His children? Where did His children begin and in what form? Does it have to do with our current world and what His expectations are for us while we are here? Is it all found in just one book of testimony, the Bible (old and new testaments)? Or, as the Bible says, it takes two or three witnesses. Do we then need at least one more book of testament and where is it? Ezekiel in chapter 37 writes about a second witness of the tribe of Joseph to be held together with the tribe of Judah (the Bible) to understand the entire truth and testament of the Lord. Isaiah wrote about this same book that would be brought forth from the ground (Hidden in the ground) in the last days. It would be translated as well by an unlearned inspired person.

    Here is my understanding of the Plan of Happiness - We have all always existed as intelligence's or energy. Our intelligence's were placed in spirit bodies born in Heaven by our Heavenly Parents. We learned and progressed to a certain point in our understanding. But, we were limited in our growth because we did not have resurrected physical bodies like our Heavenly Parents. So, worlds were prepared for us to come down, receive bodies and learn of faith and belief in our Father in Heaven and His Son, Jehovah (Jesus Christ) and in the Holy Ghost. Our world was special in that this is where the Great Jehovah would come off His throne, without a physical body like his Father in Heaven, and receive His body, be tempted, atone for all our sins and open up the portal to the resurrection of all of Father in Heaven's children who came down from heaven to receive their physical bodies as well. "No man can ascend to heaven except he that has descended from heaven first." When we die, we go to a spirit prison where it's divided into two parts, Paradise and Hell. The righteous and good people go into Paradise to await their judgment and resurrection. The wicked and disobedient go into Hell to await their judgment and resurrection. In both places, there are those who died knowing Christ and accepted all His teachings and ordinances (baptism and others ordinances). There are those in both places that may have not had the opportunity to know and learn about the Gospel of Jesus Christ nor the Law of Moses in his time. But, the good people will be with other good people. Bad people will be with other bad people. 1Peter 3:19-20. Jesus went to preach to the good people who didn't have His Gospel and ordinances. Jesus cannot look upon evil so he organized a missionary force to go to those in Hell and preach unto them. Thus, all will be given the opportunity even if they didn't have that opportunity in this life on earth. Then, the final judgment will be given. A few will end up with Satan for eternity or forever. The rest will be given just rewards in heaven as there are many mansions or stations of eternal life. 1Corinthians chapter 15 gives 3 stations or glories of Heaven we can obtain. This understanding then passes mercy unto those who were good people but had no opportunity to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    Who's putting the gun to my head????? Your god, that's who.
    Huh?


    I thought you said He doesn't exist?

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Quote Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post
    Huh?


    I thought you said He doesn't exist?
    I see you're going with the pretense that an understood "according to religious belief" isn't there. Ok, go for it.
    - See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.
    - The absence of hostilities does not prove the absence of hostility.
    - Legitimate criticism is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence.
    - I choose my words very, very, VERY carefully. - Jordan Peterson.

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    Re: 100 Years (Human Life Span) Relative To All Eternity

    Quote Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post
    Huh?


    I thought you said He doesn't exist?


    its like hes granting your premise of a god existing and how it operates according to you and going over what that would mean or something

    did you actually think you weer being intelligent in some way with your post?

    or weer you just making a joke?

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