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Beliefs and Skepticism

Angel said:
I'm afraid your skills in reading poetry are inadequate.
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Then show me using the text of the poem that the elephant is only being used as a representation of God. And demonstrate using the text of the poem that only this interpretation is key to any message or lessons that can be derived from it.
 
Angel said:
It's the interpretation the poet directs us to at the end of his poem:

MORAL,

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Tread on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean;
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen! ​

Oy!
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That tacked on moral is not part of the original parable, of which there appear to be many versions. We can't even be sure who the original author is. Plus, you seem to be missing the moral, that there is no absolute truth. Skepticism already knows this, so this parable in no way undermines skepticism, it supports it.
 
devildavid said:
Then show me using the text of the poem that the elephant is only being used as a representation of God. And demonstrate using the text of the poem that only this interpretation is key to any message or lessons that can be derived from it.
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I do that in a subsequent post. Please see.
 
devildavid said:
That tacked on moral is not part of the original parable, of which there appear to be many versions. We can't even be sure who the original author is. Plus, you seem to be missing the moral, that there is no absolute truth. Skepticism already knows this, so this parable in no way undermines skepticism, it supports it.
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The word "Moral" may or may not have been added, to help readers like yourself, but the last stanza, situating the parable squarely in theological disputes, was part of Saxe's original poem.
 
Quag said:
The conqueror worm and alone are my two favorites from him.
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Here's one of your favorites:

The Conqueror Worm
Edgar Allan Poe - 1809-1849

LO! ‘tis a gala night
Within the lonesome latter years!
An angel throng, bewinged, bedight
In veils, and drowned in tears,
Sit in a theatre, to see
A play of hopes and fears,
While the orchestra breathes fitfully
The music of the spheres.

Mimes, in the form of God on high,
Mutter and mumble low,
And hither and thither fly—
Mere puppets they, who come and go
At bidding of vast formless things
That shift the scenery to and fro,
Flapping from out their Condor wings
Invisible Wo!

That motley drama—oh, be sure
It shall not be forgot!
With its Phantom chased for evermore,
By a crowd that seize it not,
Through a circle that ever returneth in
To the self-same spot,
And much of Madness, and more of Sin,
And Horror the soul of the plot.

But see, amid the mimic rout
A crawling shape intrude!
A blood-red thing that writhes from out
The scenic solitude!
It writhes!—it writhes!—with mortal pangs
The mimes become its food,
And the angels sob at vermin fangs
In human gore imbued.

Out—out are the lights—out all!
And, over each quivering form,
The curtain, a funeral pall,
Comes down with the rush of a storm,
And the angels, all pallid and wan,
Uprising, unveiling, affirm
That the play is the tragedy, “Man,”
And its hero the Conqueror Worm.

The Conqueror Worm by Edgar Allan Poe - Poems | poets.org

What do you like about this poem?
 
Quag said:
Yes I am, Poe is probably my favorite
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There are plenty of Poe's in the world. I am going to assume you mean 'Edgar Allen'
 
I have read Ted Hughes, Robert Frost, Dylan Thomas, Gerard Manley Hopkins. A. J. (Banjo) Paterson, Judith Wright and many, many more. My favourite would have to be Ted Hughes, and of his corpus, I prefer Cleopatra to the Asp. I studied poetry extensively while doing English Literature for a Journalism degree. Furthermore, I have translated some of the works of Virgil and Catullus for the Latin component of my Ancient History and the Classics degree.

“CLEOPATRA TO THE ASP

The bright mirror I braved: the devil in it
Loved me like my soul, my soul:
Now that I seek myself in a serpent
My smile is fatal.

Nile moves in me; my thighs splay
Into the squalled Mediterranean;
My brain hides in that Abyssinia
Lost armies foundered towards.

Desert and river unwrinkle again.
Seeming to bring them the waters that make drunk
Caesar, Pompey, Antony I drank.
Now let the snake reign.

A half-deity out of Capricorn,
This rigid Augustus mounts
With his sword virginal indeed; and has shorn
Summarily the moon-horned river

From my bed. May the moon
Ruin him with virginity! Drink me, now, whole
With coiled Egypt's past; then from my delta
Swim like a fish toward Rome.”

― Ted Hughes
 
NWO_Spook said:
I have read Ted Hughes, Robert Frost, Dylan Thomas, Gerard Manley Hopkins. A. J. (Banjo) Paterson, Judith Wright and many, many more....
Click to expand...
My favorite Frost:


For Once, Then, Something
by Robert Frost

Others taunt me with having knelt at well-curbs
Always wrong to the light, so never seeing
Deeper down in the well than where the water
Gives me back in a shining surface picture
Me myself in the summer heaven godlike
Looking out of a wreath of fern and cloud puffs.
Once, when trying with chin against a well-curb,
I discerned, as I thought, beyond the picture,
Through the picture, a something white, uncertain,
Something more of the depths—and then I lost it.
Water came to rebuke the too clear water.
One drop fell from a fern, and lo, a ripple
Shook whatever it was lay there at bottom,
Blurred it, blotted it out. What was that whiteness?
Truth? A pebble of quartz? For once, then, something.

For Once, Then, Something by Robert Frost | Poetry Foundation
 
Angel said:
The word "Moral" may or may not have been added, to help readers like yourself, but the last stanza, situating the parable squarely in theological disputes, was part of Saxe's original poem.
Click to expand...

Saxe's poem is hardly original. and even his moral does not have to be interpreted as saying the elephant is God. His moral is about theological disputes. The elephant could represent religion or reality or truth. And the message is that no one has a complete understanding of any of this, including you, the reader. No one knows the elephant, whatever it represents. So you can't claim to know with certainty what it is, in the poem, or in the parable it originated, or in life.
 
There's a certain Slant of light,
Winter Afternoons –
That oppresses, like the Heft
Of Cathedral Tunes –

Heavenly Hurt, it gives us –
We can find no scar,
But internal difference –
Where the Meanings, are –

None may teach it – Any –
'Tis the seal Despair –
An imperial affliction
Sent us of the Air –

When it comes, the Landscape listens –
Shadows – hold their breath –
When it goes, 'tis like the Distance
On the look of Death –

-Emily Dickinson
 
Poems are made by fools like me
But only God can make a tree.
And only God who makes this tree,
Also makes the fools like me.
But only fools like me,, you see,
can make a God who makes a tree.
 
devildavid said:
Saxe's poem is hardly original. and even his moral does not have to be interpreted as saying the elephant is God. His moral is about theological disputes. The elephant could represent religion or reality or truth. And the message is that no one has a complete understanding of any of this, including you, the reader. No one knows the elephant, whatever it represents. So you can't claim to know with certainty what it is, in the poem, or in the parable it originated, or in life.
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That is your reading of the poem. Mine is mine. Mine is at least as legitimate as yours. The elephant represents God as I read the poem.
 
Angel said:
Three replies so far from Internet Skeptics who apparently are unfamiliar with the nature of poetry. Sad.
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Surprisingly isn't it ?
If you recite "Twinkle,Twinkle, Little Star" they'll find some excuse about which star is about God and which one isn't.
 
The first three paragraphs of the poem symbolizes strength and protection with a touch of leadership. Countrymen uses the Elephant for extensive travel though there is controversy using their tusks. We all know the Elephant is the symbol of the (good guys) Republican Party. The A$$ represents the liberal/Demo party,pelossi is a good example.
Good post.
 
PTF said:
The first three paragraphs of the poem symbolizes strength and protection with a touch of leadership. Countrymen uses the Elephant for extensive travel though there is controversy using their tusks. We all know the Elephant is the symbol of the (good guys) Republican Party.
Click to expand...

Ah, the good Christian values of the Republican party. I like Trump for that, he accurately represents American Evangelical Christian values. Not what they pay lip to service to, but what they actually support.

How Donald Trump Shifted Kids-Cancer Charity Money Into His Business

Trump Foundation Will Dissolve, Accused of ‘Shocking Pattern of Illegality’ - The New York Times

It appears you agree, and that "good guys" steal from charity, and take money from children with cancer. Is that correct?


Now back on topic:

Angel, I provided you with a photograph of an elephant. We can all go to various locations and touch an elephant.

I'm still waiting for a photograph of your God from way back on page 1. How is that coming along?
 
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Angel said:
It behooves me, I suppose, given the depth of figuration involved, to point out to the Internet Skeptic that "The Elephant in the room" refers to God.
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I don't think so. If the poem was talking about the Christian God, then the poet would have an Evangelist trying to convince the blind men that the thing they are feeling could fit into the palm of their hand.
 
JustHanging said:
Ah, the good Christian values of the Republican party. I like Trump for that, he accurately represents American Evangelical Christian values. Not what they pay lip to service to, but what they actually support.

How Donald Trump Shifted Kids-Cancer Charity Money Into His Business

Trump Foundation Will Dissolve, Accused of ‘Shocking Pattern of Illegality’ - The New York Times

It appears you agree, and that "good guys" steal from charity, and take money from children with cancer. Is that correct?


Now back on topic:

Angel, I provided you with a photograph of an elephant. We can all go to various locations and touch an elephant.

I'm still waiting for a photograph of your God from way back on page 1. How is that coming along?
Click to expand...

Your request is off topic. The links you posted are irrelevant. The liberal/Demo management team failed such as you're doing in this thread. Good has triumph over the evil liberal/Demos,deal with it.
 
JustHanging said:
I don't think so. If the poem was talking about the Christian God, then the poet would have an Evangelist trying to convince the blind men that the thing they are feeling could fit into the palm of their hand.
Click to expand...
Oy! I saif nothing about any "Christian God." Please lay some other tracks in your mind.
 
Angel said:
Here's one of your favorites:

The Conqueror Worm
Edgar Allan Poe - 1809-1849

LO! ‘tis a gala night
Within the lonesome latter years!
An angel throng, bewinged, bedight
In veils, and drowned in tears,
Sit in a theatre, to see
A play of hopes and fears,
While the orchestra breathes fitfully
The music of the spheres.

Mimes, in the form of God on high,
Mutter and mumble low,
And hither and thither fly—
Mere puppets they, who come and go
At bidding of vast formless things
That shift the scenery to and fro,
Flapping from out their Condor wings
Invisible Wo!

That motley drama—oh, be sure
It shall not be forgot!
With its Phantom chased for evermore,
By a crowd that seize it not,
Through a circle that ever returneth in
To the self-same spot,
And much of Madness, and more of Sin,
And Horror the soul of the plot.

But see, amid the mimic rout
A crawling shape intrude!
A blood-red thing that writhes from out
The scenic solitude!
It writhes!—it writhes!—with mortal pangs
The mimes become its food,
And the angels sob at vermin fangs
In human gore imbued.

Out—out are the lights—out all!
And, over each quivering form,
The curtain, a funeral pall,
Comes down with the rush of a storm,
And the angels, all pallid and wan,
Uprising, unveiling, affirm
That the play is the tragedy, “Man,”
And its hero the Conqueror Worm.

The Conqueror Worm by Edgar Allan Poe - Poems | poets.org

What do you like about this poem?
Click to expand...
That we are not the center of the universe, just mortal beings
 
Angel said:
My favorite Frost:


For Once, Then, Something
by Robert Frost

Others taunt me with having knelt at well-curbs
Always wrong to the light, so never seeing
Deeper down in the well than where the water
Gives me back in a shining surface picture
Me myself in the summer heaven godlike
Looking out of a wreath of fern and cloud puffs.
Once, when trying with chin against a well-curb,
I discerned, as I thought, beyond the picture,
Through the picture, a something white, uncertain,
Something more of the depths—and then I lost it.
Water came to rebuke the too clear water.
One drop fell from a fern, and lo, a ripple
Shook whatever it was lay there at bottom,
Blurred it, blotted it out. What was that whiteness?
Truth? A pebble of quartz? For once, then, something.

For Once, Then, Something by Robert Frost | Poetry Foundation
Click to expand...

Never been that keen on Frost. On the lines of the Conqueror Worm how about Francis Beaumont?

MORTALITY, behold and fear!
What a change of flesh is here!
Think how many royal bones
Sleep within this heap of stones:
Here they lie had realms and lands,
Who now want strength to stir their hands:
Where from their pulpits seal’d with dust
They preach, ‘In greatness is no trust.’
Here ’s an acre sown indeed
With the richest, royall’st seed
That the earth did e'er suck in
Since the first man died for sin:
Here the bones of birth have cried—
‘Though gods they were, as men they died.’
Here are sands, ignoble things,
Dropt from the ruin’d sides of kings;
Here ’s a world of pomp and state,
Buried in dust, once dead by fate.
 
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