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Proof God Exists: Here is my 11-Step Logical Proof. Enjoy.

Peter King said:
Wrong, I do not think about god. I do not refuse others to believe in gods, just as long as they do not impose their views as facts where no fact exists. It is not us who are trying to put faith in every nook and cranny of society and reality.
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You do not have to have faith in God to acknowledge that God remains a possible source of the origin of life and matter.
 
The worship of saints is not supported by Scripture...quite the contrary...Jesus, in responding to a temptation from Satan, stated, “You must worship the Lord your God, and serve him alone.” Matthew 4:10...later he said that true worshipers would worship “the Father,” no one else....John 4:23...angels also acknowledge this fact when an angel reprimanded the apostle John for attempting to worship him, saying...“Don’t do that...It is God that you must worship.”​ Revelation 22:9...
 
Mashmont said:
So why do they call him "Saint Paul"?
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Probably tradition. However, if asked about Saints, southern baptists say 'We don't pray to dead people'. You also have to remember there is a difference between Baptists, and Southern Baptist. I suspect the ones you heard referencing Saint Paul were Baptists that tend to be in the North.
 
Elvira said:
The worship of saints is not supported by Scripture...quite the contrary...Jesus, in responding to a temptation from Satan, stated, “You must worship the Lord your God, and serve him alone.” Matthew 4:10...later he said that true worshipers would worship “the Father,” no one else....John 4:23...angels also acknowledge this fact when an angel reprimanded the apostle John for attempting to worship him, saying...“Don’t do that...It is God that you must worship.”​ Revelation 22:9...
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I've never seen veneration of Saints as being "worship", though.... to me, they're just "Hall of Fame" Christians - more along the lines examples to be followed or to give inspiration. You pick a patron Saint because of who you are or what you do because they give an example that can be useful to you.
 
marke said:
You do not have to have faith in God to acknowledge that God remains a possible source of the origin of life and matter.
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So is Santa Claus. And Big Foot. What's your point?
 
Cordelier said:
I've never seen veneration of Saints as being "worship", though.... to me, they're just "Hall of Fame" Christians - more along the lines examples to be followed or to give inspiration. You pick a patron Saint because of who you are or what you do because they give an example that can be useful to you.
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Do you pray to them or ask them to intercede with God on your behalf? Would that not be considered worship? Remember what Paul said...


“There is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus.”​ 1 Timothy 2:5.
 
Elvira said:
Do you pray to them or ask them to intercede with God on your behalf? Would that not be considered worship? Remember what Paul said...


“There is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus.”​ 1 Timothy 2:5.
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I don't really know how to answer that one, Elvira... prayer is such a subliminal thing. It's not just what you say, but what you think as you pray. If I'm mindful of the example and teachings of a patron saint at the time I pray, and part of the reason I'm praying is for guidance, am I praying to the saint?
 
Cordelier said:
I don't really know how to answer that one, Elvira... prayer is such a subliminal thing. It's not just what you say, but what you think as you pray. If I'm mindful of the example and teachings of a patron saint at the time I pray, and part of the reason I'm praying is for guidance, am I praying to the saint?
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I appreciate your honesty and I'll have to be honest with you as to what I think, considering the scriptures...yes, I would say you are...even saints are imperfect humans who've made mistakes, the only One who can give us the proper guidance is God, imho...
 
Elvira said:
I appreciate your honesty and I'll have to be honest with you as to what I think, considering the scriptures...yes, I would say you are...even saints are imperfect humans who've made mistakes, the only One who can give us the proper guidance is God, imho...
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I don't think I agree with you, Elvira... but maybe it's because my concept of prayer is probably different from your's. God gives guidance, I agree... but I think part of how He does this is by giving us examples to follow. I also agree with you that Saints are imperfect human beings as well... but there's also something special about them too. They were given some undefinable "grace" from God... they may have lead imperfect lives, but in a couple of key areas, they give us an example to follow. I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about... one of my patron Saints - my secular Saint - is St. Thomas More - so if I'm ever in a dilemma about the right decision to make, I'll think about his example while I'm trying to find the answer I'm looking for. The prayer itself then becomes a kind of meditation that helps me come to my answer. I don't actually pray to St. Thomas, but I essentially allow him to be my "guide" along the special path that God created for him. There's nothing new under the sun - whatever path we seek guidance for has already been tread by those who have come before us - Saints are just people who know some of the paths particularly well and can act as guides along them.
 
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Cordelier said:
I don't think I agree with you, Elvira... but maybe it's because my concept of prayer is probably different from your's. God gives guidance, I agree... but I think part of how He does this is by giving us examples to follow. I also agree with you that Saints are imperfect human beings as well... but there's also something special about them too. They were given some undefinable "grace" from God... they may have lead imperfect lives, but in a couple of key areas, they give us an example to follow. I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about... one of my patron Saints - my secular Saint - is St. Thomas More - so if I'm ever in a dilemma about the right decision to make, I'll think about his example while I'm trying to find the answer I'm looking for. The prayer itself then becomes a kind of meditation that helps me come to my answer. I don't actually pray to St. Thomas, but I essentially allow him to be my "guide" along the special path that God created for him.
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Thanks for explaining, Cordelier...taking those things into consideration, I would say we're not all that different, you and I...Paul himself said he was an example for us to follow, just as he followed the Christ, so looking to faithful ones who came before us is not a bad thing when facing decisions in life...in fact, I think that is what God wants us to do, for our own benefit...the more we meditate and look to past examples, the good and the bad, the stronger our own faith becomes...through his use of human writers, Jehovah provided just what we need​...a record that is “inspired of God” yet retains the human element so we are able to relate...

"For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope." Romans 15:4
 
Elvira said:
Thanks for explaining, Cordelier...taking those things into consideration, I would say we're not all that different, you and I...Paul himself said he was an example for us to follow, just as he followed the Christ, so looking to faithful ones who came before us is not a bad thing when facing decisions in life...in fact, I think that is what God wants us to do, for our own benefit...the more we meditate and look to past examples, the good and the bad, the stronger our own faith becomes...through his use of human writers, Jehovah provided just what we need​...a record that is “inspired of God” yet retains the human element so we are able to relate...

"For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope." Romans 15:4
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Great post, Elvira - I think it encapsulates perfectly what I've been trying to say. :)
 
blarg said:
that's a claim not evidence your proof of that claim is?
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The origin of life and matter is witness to a cause and the only cause which makes scientific sense is God.
 
marke said:
Big Foot? You honestly think Big Foot might have created life and matter?
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I honestly don't know. Big Foot might have, I can't prove he/she didn't. Can you?
 
marke said:
The origin of life and matter is witness to a cause and the only cause which makes scientific sense is God.
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that's a claim not evidence your proof of that claim is?
 
JustHanging said:
I honestly don't know. Big Foot might have, I can't prove he/she didn't. Can you?
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Nobody can scientifically prove how matter and life originated because science is the study of things observed, not the study of speculations, assumptions, theory and philosophy. Whatever caused matter to emerge from nothing had to have had enormous miraculous power and I don't think even in the most exalted view of Bigfoot the unobserved creature could have had that kind of power.
 
blarg said:
that's a claim not evidence your proof of that claim is?
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Don't be silly. Science cannot prove what caused matter, energy and life to come into being in the first place.
 
Mashmont said:
Don't like it when it's a black man who has been outsmarting you all these months, do you?
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I voted for your African-American brethren twice in back to black POTUS elections, TYVM.
 
marke said:
Nobody can scientifically prove how matter and life originated because science is the study of things observed, not the study of speculations, assumptions, theory and philosophy.
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And we can observe things that tell us what happened in the past. For example the fossil record, or the geologic column.

Whatever caused matter to emerge from nothing had to have had enormous miraculous power and I don't think even in the most exalted view of Bigfoot the unobserved creature could have had that kind of power.
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How do you know Big Foot couldn't have done it? You would need to prove that. Perhaps he/she has just been laying low these many years. If they are a god, well, we know how good gods are at appearing to be imaginary.
 
marke said:
Science cannot prove what caused matter, energy and life to come into being in the first place.
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Yeah.
And?

Just because science can't prove something doesn't mean "god did it".
At least not for reasonably intelligent thinkers.
 
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