• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Mohamed's ironic expectation

stevecanuck said:
Actually, it does matter. Those who try to follow the Qur'an are a greater threat than strictly adherent Christians. The real life Mohamed made war, encouraged war, and had people killed. The Qur'an reflects that in no uncertain terms. The mythical Jesus was the polar opposite, and most Christians follow his example rather than the OT.

Think of the bible as two sheets of bubble wrap, one the OT and other the NT. It's possible to pop individual bubbles you don't like, such as Deuteronomy, and still have plenty left over to do the job. That's because the bible has 40-ish authors, three original languages, and was several hundred years in the making, making for very little cohesion.

On the other hand, the Qur'an is a balloon. It had one author speaking in one language (still used today) and was revealed over only 22 years. One author - one agenda. If you accept one surah, you have to accept them all.
Click to expand...

Somewhat correct, except in the applications of accepting one surah.

The Medina Qur'an generally abrogates the Meccan Qur'an, and the peaceful and love quotes are in the Meccan and no longer valid.
That is not a blanket statement, as individual quotes can vary.
 
Yasureoktoo said:
Somewhat correct, except in the applications of accepting one surah.

The Medina Qur'an generally abrogates the Meccan Qur'an, and the peaceful and love quotes are in the Meccan and no longer valid.
That is not a blanket statement, as individual quotes can vary.
Click to expand...

I've recently reread the Meccan surahs, and to tell the truth, there's no peace and love there either. Only follow me in monotheism or burn in Hell. Twelve years of that and not much else.
 
RE: Quran more violent than NT:
Yasureoktoo said:
Actually his statement is correct, especially when you add in the Sunnah.
Click to expand...

Maybe so. In fact, probably so. Of course you would have to ignore the OT. But that's fine.

But regardless, history does not suggest that in practice, it makes any difference in the general actions of their adherents. They will always have their gods and scriptures want and say what they want them to want and say. If they are in the mood for peace, that is what their holy book will say: whether it's the Muslim Sufis or Mother Teresa. And when they are in the mood for war, that in turn is what they will have their Gods want and say, whether it's ISIS or European colonists and slave-owners.
 
ataraxia said:
RE: Quran more violent than NT:


Maybe so. In fact, probably so. Of course you would have to ignore the OT. But that's fine.

But regardless, history does not suggest that in practice, it makes any difference in the general actions of their adherents. They will always have their gods and scriptures want and say what they want them to want and say. If they are in the mood for peace, that is what their holy book will say: whether it's the Muslim Sufis or Mother Teresa. And when they are in the mood for war, that in turn is what they will have their Gods want and say, whether it's ISIS or European colonists and slave-owners.
Click to expand...

That just isn't so, at least for the Qur'an. There are 6,236 verses in it, and less than a dozen that can be read as potentially promoting peace. As soon as Mohamed relocated to Medina and gained a sizable following, he started preaching war. Then he started making war, and the Qur'an is the tool he used to promote his agenda.

Everyone's favorite Islam-is-peace verse is 2:62,"There is no compulsion in religion". And that is born out by the rest of the Qur'an. No verse says anyone will be forced to convert to Islam. To remain an unbeliever, all a person has to do is accept second class citizenship, pay the Islamic protection racket fee called the jizya, and submit to being considered "the worst of beasts in the eyes of God (8:55)" and being treated accordingly. Oh, and then of course it's off to Hell where unbelievers, and naughty Muslims who run away from the fight, will spend eternity being tortured by fire and forced to drink molten brass.
 
ataraxia said:
RE: Quran more violent than NT:


Maybe so. In fact, probably so. Of course you would have to ignore the OT. But that's fine.

But regardless, history does not suggest that in practice, it makes any difference in the general actions of their adherents. They will always have their gods and scriptures want and say what they want them to want and say. If they are in the mood for peace, that is what their holy book will say: whether it's the Muslim Sufis or Mother Teresa. And when they are in the mood for war, that in turn is what they will have their Gods want and say, whether it's ISIS or European colonists and slave-owners.
Click to expand...

Actually even if we through in the OT, Islam's sunnah is hundreds of times more violent.

and BTW, Muslim Sufi's are one of the more peaceful groups.
They are actually,Zoroastrianism, but merged Islam into the religion to keep their heads, which they do lose from time to time.
 
Last edited:
stevecanuck said:
That just isn't so, at least for the Qur'an. There are 6,236 verses in it, and less than a dozen that can be read as potentially promoting peace. As soon as Mohamed relocated to Medina and gained a sizable following, he started preaching war. Then he started making war, and the Qur'an is the tool he used to promote his agenda.

Everyone's favorite Islam-is-peace verse is 2:62,"There is no compulsion in religion". And that is born out by the rest of the Qur'an. No verse says anyone will be forced to convert to Islam. To remain an unbeliever, all a person has to do is accept second class citizenship, pay the Islamic protection racket fee called the jizya, and submit to being considered "the worst of beasts in the eyes of God (8:55)" and being treated accordingly. Oh, and then of course it's off to Hell where unbelievers, and naughty Muslims who run away from the fight, will spend eternity being tortured by fire and forced to drink molten brass.
Click to expand...

We have another, probably the most misquoted verse in all of Islam, ( Kitman, Lying by omission)

Used in all the " Bridge building lectures "

…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).

What they do is omit the part of the verse that says, except for murder or spreading corruption in the land.
They also don't point out it was plagarized from the Jewish Adam and Eve story, about the killing of Cain and Able,
and not delivered from God as claimed.

Also the very next verse in the Qur'an tells you what to do with them.

the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land.

which basically means you can kill anyone who rocks the boat.
 
stevecanuck said:
I'm talking about the here and now.
Click to expand...

Contingencies of history. These things come and go. There was a time when the Muslims were considered more tolerant and enlightened.
 
ataraxia said:
Contingencies of history. These things come and go. There was a time when the Muslims were considered more tolerant and enlightened.
Click to expand...

We hear about people claiming these things, however, they did not re-write the religion.
It is the exact same one as was written 1000 years ago.

But there were fewer laws, and places were conquered easier.
The history claims differently.
 
Yasureoktoo said:
We have another, probably the most misquoted verse in all of Islam, ( Kitman, Lying by omission)

Used in all the " Bridge building lectures "

…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).

What they do is omit the part of the verse that says, except for murder or spreading corruption in the land.
They also don't point out it was plagarized from the Jewish Adam and Eve story, about the killing of Cain and Able,
and not delivered from God as claimed.

Also the very next verse in the Qur'an tells you what to do with them.

the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land.

which basically means you can kill anyone who rocks the boat.
Click to expand...

Someone in our local paper misquoted that verse exactly as you say, so I wrote a letter to the editor explaining the lie by omission.
 
ataraxia said:
Contingencies of history. These things come and go. There was a time when the Muslims were considered more tolerant and enlightened.
Click to expand...

The barbarity of Christians has gone and will never come back. Islam is heading in the other direction - straight back to the Qur'an and the excesses of Mohamed.
 
Yasureoktoo said:
We hear about people claiming these things, however, they did not re-write the religion.
It is the exact same one as was written 1000 years ago.

But there were fewer laws, and places were conquered easier.
The history claims differently.
Click to expand...

You seem to be under this funny impression that holy books are these things that people actually read- or if they do, they do it with any intention to understand it in detail, rather than just use or exploit it for political and personal agendas. LOL. In the past the majority of people, at least until the last century or so, were illiterate. The clergy told them what the book said. And funny enough it usually said the priest’s most current opinions and agendas.

If you read the Bible, it says that ye shall know them by their fruits. The fruits are not all that different between any of them. Not sure what point there is in continuing to insist on what’s actually in the book. It doesn’t seem to matter for most people- including the politicians, the masses, or the warriors.
 
Last edited:
stevecanuck said:
The barbarity of Christians has gone and will never come back. Islam is heading in the other direction - straight back to the Qur'an and the excesses of Mohamed.
Click to expand...

How do you know this? In history, you never say never.

People thought the KKK was over back in the 1920s. Who would’ve thought we would have white nationalists like Miller or Bannon as top level advisors to the President of the United States now in the 21st century?
 
Yasureoktoo said:
We have another, probably the most misquoted verse in all of Islam, ( Kitman, Lying by omission)

Used in all the " Bridge building lectures "

…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).

What they do is omit the part of the verse that says, except for murder or spreading corruption in the land.
They also don't point out it was plagarized from the Jewish Adam and Eve story, about the killing of Cain and Able,
and not delivered from God as claimed.

Also the very next verse in the Qur'an tells you what to do with them.

the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land.

which basically means you can kill anyone who rocks the boat.
Click to expand...

Another favorite bit of sophistry they like to try is to pass off surah 109 as being suggestive of a live-and-let-live philosophy. Verse 6 is frequently quoted to prove the point. - "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion". They want you to believe there's an implied, "and that's OK" to go along with it. But there isn't. It's simply a statement of fact that would be obvious if all 6 verses were quoted:

1 - Say, "O disbelievers,
2 - I do not worship what you worship.
3 - Nor are you worshipers of what I worship.
4 - Nor will I be a worshiper of what you worship.
5 - Nor will you be worshipers of what I worship.
6 - For you is your religion, and for me is my religion".

It could just as easily be taken as a clear delineation of the one irreconcilable difference that will forever separate believer from kafar. Further reading of the Qur'an would confirm this to be the more probable of the two possible inferences. Verse 3:85 provides a clue - "And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him".
 
stevecanuck said:
The barbarity of Christians has gone and will never come back. Islam is heading in the other direction - straight back to the Qur'an and the excesses of Mohamed.
Click to expand...

Thete are a billion muslims in the world. If they all were commanded to kill us we would all already be dead
 
ataraxia said:
You seem to be under this funny impression that holy books are these things that people actually read- or if they do, they do it with any intention to understand it in detail, rather than just use or exploit it for political and personal agendas. LOL.
Click to expand...

You say this as though it were a fact, when actually you have no way of proving it, or even supposing it based on specific knowledge. To hold that position you have to dismiss out of hand the claims of those who willing die while holding the Qur'an high. What evidence do you have? Failing evidence, what logic leads you to ignore the very reason they give for waging jihad? We do not accuse them of following the Qur'an - they freely and proudly not merely admit it, but enthusiastically proclaim it.

In the past the majority of people, at least until the last century or so, were illiterate. The clergy told them what the book said. And funny enough it usually said the priest’s most current opinions and agendas.
Click to expand...

Correct. And in stating that you argue against yourself. The fact that an increase in jihad activity mirrors an increase in literacy should tell you something. Now that more Muslims than ever are able to read God's commands for themselves, the more violence and religious apartheid there is. Religious minorities live an ever increasingly precarious existence in Muslim majority countries as a result.
 
ataraxia said:
How do you know this? In history, you never say never.

People thought the KKK was over back in the 1920s. Who would’ve thought we would have white nationalists like Miller or Bannon as top level advisors to the President of the United States now in the 21st century?
Click to expand...

Christians no longer burn witches and never will again. Islamic mujahadin DO burn people alive. They also kidnap and rape school girls to create future armies. Christians in some countries are murdered by mobs of Muslims who have been "insulted". And try "coming out" in Saudi Arabia.

Equating the increase in Islamic based atrocities with a few KKK nutbars is absurd.
 
stevecanuck said:
You say this as though it were a fact, when actually you have no way of proving it, or even supposing it based on specific knowledge. To hold that position you have to dismiss out of hand the claims of those who willing die while holding the Qur'an high. What evidence do you have? Failing evidence, what logic leads you to ignore the very reason they give for waging jihad? We do not accuse them of following the Qur'an - they freely and proudly not merely admit it, but enthusiastically proclaim it.



Correct. And in stating that you argue against yourself. The fact that an increase in jihad activity mirrors an increase in literacy should tell you something. Now that more Muslims than ever are able to read God's commands for themselves, the more violence and religious apartheid there is. Religious minorities live an ever increasingly precarious existence in Muslim majority countries as a result.
Click to expand...

Not really. These Christians were pretty literate. And this is how they interpreted their Bible:

“Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts."
-Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.

"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell

"The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).

"The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond.

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

“ "... under the same protection as any other species of lawful property...That the Ten Commandments are the word of G-d, and as such, of the very highest authority, is acknowledged by Christians as well as by Jews...How dare you, in the face of the sanction and protection afforded to slave property in the Ten Commandments--how dare you denounce slaveholding as a sin? When you remember that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job--the men with whom the Almighty conversed, with whose names he emphatically connects his own most holy name, and to whom He vouchsafed to give the character of 'perfect, upright, fearing G-d and eschewing evil' (Job 1:8)--that all these men were slaveholders, does it not strike you that you are guilty of something very little short of blasphemy?"
-MJ Raphall, 1861
Click to expand...
 
vegas giants said:
Thete are a billion muslims in the world. If they all were commanded to kill us we would all already be dead
Click to expand...

That is a false dichotomy and an absurd absolute. There is no IF about it. They are commanded to kill us until we submit, and back when such an attempt was possible, it was indeed made in exact accordance with verse 9:29. Put the graphic novels down and crack a history book.
 
stevecanuck said:
Christians no longer burn witches and never will again. Islamic mujahadin DO burn people alive. They also kidnap and rape school girls to create future armies. Christians in some countries are murdered by mobs of Muslims who have been "insulted". And try "coming out" in Saudi Arabia.

Equating the increase in Islamic based atrocities with a few KKK nutbars is absurd.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? There are several of these nut bars are in the White House right now. Not sure why this could not be the beginning of a trend to take us back to the 1920s again. That’s not too long ago, after all.

You seem to be a little biased.
 
stevecanuck said:
Mohamed had no proof of divine revelation to offer the world. He had only his word, as God did not give him powers to perform miracles. He expected the pagans, and eventually Jews and Christians, to abandon the beliefs of their ancestors based solely on faith that he was receiving "signs" from God. The glaring irony of this presumption is that Mohamed was the only person in the world not expected to have faith. He had living proof as he actually sat face to face with Gabriel as the means of receiving the Qur'an. Mohamed was given Islam, while everyone else was expected to take the extra step of accepting it through him.
Click to expand...

Islam is a sickness.
 
stevecanuck said:
Not one word of that addressed my post.
Click to expand...

If your point is that the Qurann is a more violent book then the NT, you will not have any more arguments for me. But are you really telling us that Christianity has a much better history than Islam?

The only reason the Western world is less barbaric today is not because of their Christianity, but because of secularization.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom