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Mohamed's ironic expectation

OlNate said:
I did. Couldn't find anything that leads me to believe some guy who hates Islam has much to say on the topic, when the actual followers of Islam are of differing opinions. :shrug:
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Perhaps you have an actual follower of Islam to back that up.
 
stevecanuck said:
Did you read the list of "miracles"? A clue that they were legends made up after the fact is that none of that happened during the Mecca years. Mohamed spent 12 years trying to convert the pagans when all he would have had to do was to make one little rock greet him with a hearty good morning. Pagans eat that **** up. They would have converted in droves, but not one rock spoke to him that whole time.

In fact, the pagans even asked him to do something miraculous to prove he had God's ear, but he told them flat out that he was merely a mortal messenger. That list is just the Arab version of, "Now I remembers the time I seen ol' Wild Bill shootin' two buffalo at the same time with a carbine in each hand. Yup, ol' Wild Bill his own self. Seen it this my own eyes".
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Cool story. I'll let the Muslims to define their own faith, though.
 
OlNate said:
Cool story. I'll let the Muslims to define their own faith, though.
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One of the big problems.

Nobody has an answer, and they are killing each other over the theories.

This would probably be a good thing, except they are killing others also.
 
stevecanuck said:
It's already been done. The Qur'an was created for that very purpose.
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The problem there is the Qur'an is a literary disaster, and you need the Sunnah to understand the Qur'an.

another monkey wrench.

There are so many different stories,
it is not a matter of interpretation, so much as manipulation, on what that sect or group, is ordered to believe.
 
stevecanuck said:
You didn't understand what I meant.

I'm saying that the bible ascribes miracles to Jesus, whereas the Qur'an does not ascribe miracles to Mohamed.
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Why is that in any way a requirement for a religion to be true or not?

I'd argue that Christians' tendency to believe in magic makes the religion look less truthful.
 
Yasureoktoo said:
The problem there is the Qur'an is a literary disaster, and you need the Sunnah to understand the Qur'an.

another monkey wrench.

There are so many different stories,
it is not a matter of interpretation, so much as manipulation, on what that sect or group, is ordered to believe.
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I'm sure the sunnah would explain a lot. I've found that reading the Qur'an in chronological order and tying that to events has given me new insights as well.

I appreciate your contributions to the discussions.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Why is that in any way a requirement for a religion to be true or not?

I'd argue that Christians' tendency to believe in magic makes the religion look less truthful.
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It isn't. You're still missing the point of the OP. Believability has never been the point of this thread. The expectation of belief from the pagans by having to take Mohamed's word for the whole thing while Mohamed had an actual miracle to go by is the point. (Again, according to Islamic belief).
 
And it is not so much as the peoples belief in the magic of the religion, but rather what that magic, and religious orders consist of.

If you have one religion that tells you to "love thy neighbor",

And another that tells you to, "kill your neighbor",

The overall results will be drastically different.
 
Yasureoktoo said:
And it is not so much as the peoples belief in the magic of the religion, but rather what that magic, and religious orders consist of.

If you have one religion that tells you to "love thy neighbor",

And another that tells you to, "kill your neighbor",

The overall results will be drastically different.
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“Serve God, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess [the slave]: For God loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious” (Q:4:36)
 
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):
“None of you have faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself” (Sahih
Muslim)

“Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and to enter Paradise”¦should treat the people as he wishes to be treated.” (Sahih Muslim)

“None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself”(Forty Hadith-Nawawi)

“None of you is a believer if he eats his full while his neighbour hasn’t anything.” (Musnad)

“Do unto all men as you would wish to have done unto you; and reject for others what you would reject for yourselves.” (Abu Dawud)

Islam and the Golden Rule
 
Islam's Golden Rule only applies to Muslims living in the west oddly enough. Never do unto Muslims as they would like to do unto you or you'll live to regret it.
 
zyzygy said:
“Serve God, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess [the slave]: For God loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious” (Q:4:36)
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This particular one was written after the Khaybar incident.
Jews were considered less than human.
 
zyzygy said:
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):
“None of you have faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself” (Sahih
Muslim)

“Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and to enter Paradise”¦should treat the people as he wishes to be treated.” (Sahih Muslim)

“None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself”(Forty Hadith-Nawawi)

“None of you is a believer if he eats his full while his neighbour hasn’t anything.” (Musnad)

“Do unto all men as you would wish to have done unto you; and reject for others what you would reject for yourselves.” (Abu Dawud)

Islam and the Golden Rule
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One main problem is that all this was written hundreds of years after the fact, when the Arabian penn. had already been cleansed.
Like all of Islam, it is directed to a particular group, and does not apply to all.
 
zyzygy said:
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):
“None of you have faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself” (Sahih
Muslim)

“Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and to enter Paradise”¦should treat the people as he wishes to be treated.” (Sahih Muslim)

“None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself”(Forty Hadith-Nawawi)

“None of you is a believer if he eats his full while his neighbour hasn’t anything.” (Musnad)

“Do unto all men as you would wish to have done unto you; and reject for others what you would reject for yourselves.” (Abu Dawud)

Islam and the Golden Rule
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What you are failing to mention is the dualism in Islam.
The laws for the people and the laws regarding others.

So what kafirs want to reform about Islam is its principles of political submission and duality. What principle can be used to reform Islam? The key is how Islam treats the “other”–the kafir. The Golden Rule tells us how the “other” is to be treated.

Every culture in the world has the Golden Rule as part of its heritage. But not Islam.
So what happens if we apply–treat others, as you want to be treated–to political Islam?
All of the hurtful, hateful and harmful duality and submission disappear.
What is amazing is how much of the Islamic doctrine goes away.
About 61% of the Koran disappears. The Sira loses 75% of its words and 20% of the Hadith vanishes.

We could produce a Koran, Sira and Hadith that would use the Golden Rule. It would be a thin volume, but what Muslim would buy it?
 
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stevecanuck said:
It isn't. You're still missing the point of the OP. Believability has never been the point of this thread. The expectation of belief from the pagans by having to take Mohamed's word for the whole thing while Mohamed had an actual miracle to go by is the point. (Again, according to Islamic belief).
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An "actual miracle"? What is that exactly? Jesus never claimed to be able to do miracles as 100% of what is written about him is alleged by a third party. I'm not seeing the lack of grandiose magic as making Islam less believable than Christianity.

Youve based your entire life on taking the word of some asshole you never met.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
An "actual miracle"? What is that exactly? Jesus never claimed to be able to do miracles as 100% of what is written about him is alleged by a third party. I'm not seeing the lack of grandiose magic as making Islam less believable than Christianity.
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I feel like I'm trapped in a bad sitcom skit. The appearance of Gabriel is the miracle, and yes, I feel it is again necessary to add - according to Islamic belief.

Youve based your entire life on taking the word of some asshole you never met.
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Do you think I'm a Christian?
 
zyzygy said:
Much like the Catholic Church and heretics.
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Far worse than that.
And the Catholics had to go outside their religion, or fabricate something new, to find an excuse.

The Muslims just needed to look in their books.
 
Yasureoktoo said:
Far worse than that.
And the Catholics had to go outside their religion, or fabricate something new, to find an excuse.

The Muslims just needed to look in their books.
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So what?
 
stevecanuck said:
No, Islam is growing.
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To think of it as Islam vs CHristianity is not really a good way to think about it. It’s more about religion growing in uneducated and economically impoverished areas, and being shed as education and economic conditions improve.

” When we look at the effects of economic development on religion, we find that overall development — represented by per capita Gross Domestic Product (gdp) — tends to reduce religiosity.
The empirical evidence supports, to a degree, the secularization thesis which holds that with increased income, people tend to become less religious (as measured by religious attendance and religious beliefs). Economic development causes religion to play a lesser role in the political process and in policymaking, in the legal process, as well as in social arrangements (marriages, friendships, colleagues). There are four primary indicators of the influence of economic development on religion.”

Religion and Economic Development | Hoover Institution
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And, it seems secularizatiin precedes economic growth. The pattern seems to hold for Islamic countries as well. Turkey, for example, became a secular democracy after WWI, and has gone on to be one of the strongest economies in the world. It will be interesting to see how, or if, this changes as it is going back to being a more religious country.

Iran was one of the strongest economies in the Middle East under the secular rule of the Shah. Since the Islamic Revolution of 1979, however, it’s economy is in shambles, even despite the fact that they are one of the highest oil producing nations of the world.

Secular countries can expect future economic growth, confirms new study -- ScienceDaily
 
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