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Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

Lack of belief does not really require reasons.
.
Really! Then how did you arrive at it? Did you just decide without thought on the spur of the moment?

I'm sorry there is no dictatorial entity that prescribes usage. So you can't say that common usage is wrong because common usage determines definition.
I would point out as i have with another. Look up the word altruistic. It gives the common usage but that is the wrong definition that was rejected even by the comte who coined the word in the first place.

I'm not considering a god at all. I'm saying atheism is a lack of belief in a god.
So what you are saying is that their might be a god but you choose to lack any belief in that?

you can't arrive in a lack of belief in God without thinking about it? You'll have to explain that.

So when asked why you lack a belief the best you can do is shrug your shoulders and say,"I dunno."


that's false agnostics do not to believe in God. That is a position. Just because you don't respect it doesn't mean it's not a position.
No, you fail to make the distinction. (a)gnosticism is about knowledge of god and not a lack of or a belief in a god. Remember the example of santa? You have knowledge of god but are either a child who still believes in santa,gnostic or an adult who does not agnostic.

yes you do because there are no set meanings to words and if there are present whatever holy document you have dictating the meanings of words.
If i understand that correctly then yes, we take meaning of words through context and not just common usage.


I'm sorry again there is no official document that defines words. So we have to go with common parlance. There is nothing else.


okay show me your documents that show correct usage

A dictionary is the official definition by common usage. We use words as such which does not mean that we do not also use words with meanings specific to context of the statement.

. again with a lack of prescribed word meanings all we have is common usage. Your definition of atheist turns up nowhere except for in your own mind.
My way of describing atheism is not knew and i have not been the only one to use it. Nor is your point have any real validity. If someone comes up with a an idea you have never heard of before do you then just reject it because you have never heard it.

Soyou are appealing to an authority that doesn't even exist.
What authority can i be using if your claim that the idea has never existed or been used is true?


Right and common usage is how a language is spoken. What you were doing is trying to redefine a word and your reasons are really kind of stupid. And I'm here to tell you that's not happening
Hate to tell you this but iut happens all the time.
how many words enter the english language each year | Bookshelf
The GLM estimates that in the modern world a new word is created every 98 minutes. Each year, an estimated 800 to 1,000 new words are added to English language dictionaries (in the 20th century alone, more than 90,000 words have been added). Editors of the third edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED), to be completed by 2037, estimate that the rate of inclusion of new words into the OED are about 4,000 per year. In 2014, the OED added more than 2,500 new words.
 
Hi, Soylent.

Per the OP, this is not a thread about the existence of God. There are lots of those. Are you able to please not derail the thread?

We are not discussing the existence of a god. We are talking about the meaning of words. Do try to keep up there's a good fellow.
 
Atheism is a state where we have discovered theism and through reason reject it.
Incorrect. Atheism is merely the lack of theism. If someone is never taught anything about any kind of theism, they would be an atheist because they lack theism. You have to be taught religion. Atheism is the natural state of being if nothing was taught.

Not sure whether this is a typo or not.

Atheism is a choice arrived at by thinking about theism. The two are directly related. Atheism is nothing else but the rejection of theism. And like knowledge of a god, no one is born with faith, it is a learned experience.
You are right about religion being a learned experience, but you are mistaken about atheism. Everyone is a natural born atheist, until they are told what to believe. Once they are taught religion, they have a choice to make - whether to believe or not. A true atheist lacks faith and no amount of religious instruction will alter that reality. I make the distinction because there are also the anti-theists. I think you are trying to describe anti-theists. They are not true atheists. Anti-theists may or may not believe, but what all anti-theists have in common is their irrational abject hatred of all religions. Unlike the anti-theists, atheists do not hate religion. Atheists don't understand why people have faith in a particular religion, but they don't hate it either.
 
Incorrect. Atheism is merely the lack of theism. If someone is never taught anything about any kind of theism, they would be an atheist because they lack theism. You have to be taught religion. Atheism is the natural state of being if nothing was taught.


You are right about religion being a learned experience, but you are mistaken about atheism. Everyone is a natural born atheist, until they are told what to believe. Once they are taught religion, they have a choice to make - whether to believe or not. A true atheist lacks faith and no amount of religious instruction will alter that reality. I make the distinction because there are also the anti-theists. I think you are trying to describe anti-theists. They are not true atheists. Anti-theists may or may not believe, but what all anti-theists have in common is their irrational abject hatred of all religions. Unlike the anti-theists, atheists do not hate religion. Atheists don't understand why people have faith in a particular religion, but they don't hate it either.

If atheism is a lack of theism and you have never been told there is theism then what are you an atheist about? You cannot be saying an atheist is completely ignorant of the existence of theism. They go hand in hand we cannot have one without the other. Atheism is nothing more than a response to theism.

No, we are all naturally born without knowledge of a god. That is ignosticism. To be an atheist requires some knowledge of a god in order to say you lack any belief in it.

Even as an atheist i have faith in some things that i take for granted will happen. Faith is not the exclusive property of theists that is just christians being there usual thieving selves by claiming it is a god thing.

And anti theism is something that is quite useful at times especially when some fool christian demand that their morality be made into law.
 
Find a gif and post it like you would any other image. See below.

source.gif

It always screws up...perhaps if I link to the gif? Here's what I posted...hehe...

3Qfo.gif


Clearly I didn't want to get into it...lol...some battles aren't worth having, when flippancy will do. ;)


(and that still didn't work...arg. Address for gif is That Escalated Fast Escalated Quickly GIF - ThatEscalatedFast Escalated EscalatedQuickly - Discover & Share GIFs)
 
We are not discussing the existence of a god. We are talking about the meaning of words. Do try to keep up there's a good fellow.

Huh...interesting response.

So, let's bring it back to the topic of this thread, which is reconciliation. How do you think your response fits in? I mean, it's clearly meant to be snarky. Do you see yourself as part of the solution, or part of the problem?
 
It always screws up...perhaps if I link to the gif? Here's what I posted...hehe...

3Qfo.gif


Clearly I didn't want to get into it...lol...some battles aren't worth having, when flippancy will do. ;)


(and that still didn't work...arg.)

You need to copy the "image address." Please see below.

tenor.gif
 
You need to copy the "image address." Please see below.

tenor.gif

lol...might as well garbage up my own thread trying this out...lol...

tenor.gif


Edit: Yay, it worked. Thanks, man! lol
 
Really! Then how did you arrive at it? Did you just decide without thought on the spur of the moment?
arrived at what? There's nothing to arrive to don't actively believe in any gods.

I would point out as i have with another. Look up the word altruistic. It gives the common usage but that is the wrong definition that was rejected even by comte who coined the word in the first place.
common usage is the definition it's not right or wrong that's just how the word is defined. Whoever coined it doesn't matter.


So what you are saying is that their might be a god but you choose to lack any belief in that?
what I'm saying is what I typed you don't have to ask me if so you're saying. Just read what I said and you'll know what I'm saying.

The sentence that starts so you're saying is a setup for strawman.


So when asked why you lack a belief the best you can do is shrug your shoulders and say,"I dunno."
I'm a Theist, so I don't lack belief. But you're acting as though the natural state is believing in God.


No, you fail to make the distinction. (a)gnosticism is about knowledge of god and not a lack of or a belief in a god.
are you contending that agnostics believe in God? Church where is the agnostic Church?

Remember the example of santa?
yes I remember it being moronic.
You have knowledge of santa but are either a child who still believes in santa, gnostic or an adult who does not agnostic.
I knew it was moronic. understanding a myth doesn't mean you don't realize it's a myth.

If i understand that correctly then yes, we take meaning of words through context and not just common usage.
well with the English language some words are ambiguous. Meaning they have multiple meanings. You can extrapolate the particular definition someone is using based on context. but you can't make up completely new definitions and insisted that they are correct based on nothing.



A dictionary is the official definition by common usage. We use words as such which does not mean that we do not also use words with meanings specific to context of the statement.
context can remove ambiguity it doesn't define me meaning.

My way of describing atheism is not knew and i have not been the only one to use it.
But it is esoteric.
Nor is your point have any real validity. If someone comes up with a an idea you have never heard of before do you then just reject it because you have never heard it.
I didn't reject what you said the meaning of the word was I just said it was esoteric.

What authority can i be using if your claim that the idea has never existed or been used is true?
that's why I said didn't even exist it's a false authority.


Hate to tell you this but iut happens all the time.
how many words enter the english language each year | Bookshelf
This undermines your position however the word was coined was that that is it set in stone definition throughout all time.
 
Why bother?

Let me try it this way... see if it helps.

Discussion and debate is an evolutionary trait and generally speaking is worthwhile because it can advance most subjects, you just happened to pick a subject with historical implications and lessons that suggest anything but reconciliation.

The other thing is discussion and debate does not necessarily mean concluding with common ground or compromise. However, if compromise is achieved that does not mean consensus (in the general agreement sense) from all participants and points of view on whatever is being discussed. To that end, even if consensus on a subject is achieved that is not always synonymous with reconciliation (in the compatible sense of the term.)

For plenty of subjects we can simply agree to disagree on something, have a good discussion on the subject or issue, and remain within the same area, society, nation, what have you as compatible citizens that do not agree on everything. Not every issue has the same weight, not every issue has the same consequence of not agreeing.

However for plenty of other subjects that becomes more challenging usually based on the nature of the issue, how polarizing that issue might be, and ultimately who is appealed to in order to have that opinion marginalize the opposition in some regard.

Take these forums here... there is real reason that "beliefs and skepticism" is separate from Theology (and we have the added third area of Philosophy as well.) These forums did not always organize this area as they are today but it is easy to argue that blending Theology with "beliefs and skepticism" had some consequences. Those that believe need a place to discuss what they believe, those that are skeptical need a place to voice that, and Philosophy... well, that can be any number of things.

But right here in these forums is a more controlled microcosm of a greater world without such confines.

Your subject of reconciliation between atheism and theism immediately fails because of the indisputable reality that just between all the takes on theism you do not have reconciliation either. God or Gods across all of humanity in raw numbers is into the thousands and just within the more modern takes within all the branches of just the Abrahamic Religions you have very little room for reconciliation. If they were really all that compatible you would see far less division, far less appeal to authority to mainstream one over the other, far less marginalization of the minority belief, and ultimately far less reason for loss of life, destruction, and warfare. Ideologically speaking Christianity has no room to be compatible with Islam, same story with Islam and Judaism, and get them all together and we have historical proof of how little they all get along even if you can argue today that Judaism and Christianity can somewhat coexist without all these negative realities from human history.

You add in atheism (and even agnosticism) to the mix and ironically you amplify the problem as it all boils down to various ideologies that are descendant from what someone believes or does not.

All of human history is on my side of this debate, with few if any real exceptions to the rule on what competition in the space of systems of belief result in.

We can discuss and debate these topics and still find positive outcome, but that does not mean all of a sudden tomorrow nations and ideologies will no longer be in conflict. Last I checked the overwhelming majority of nations in the world are in some phase of conflict with someone else (if not themselves too.)

"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence.' - Jiddu Krishnamurti

He was right then, still correct today, and even though we can have peaceful conversation here that does not mean he will become wrong tomorrow.
 
So, another proponent of the live and let live variety. I agree with you. :) As a Christian, I believe 100% in the separation of church and state. The Bible clearly demands this, in no uncertain terms. The way that politicians have dragged my faith through the mud, only to secure power, makes me sick.

Would you be there for me, if my ability to practice my religion was threatened?

Yes, I don't care if you're a Christian, Muslim, or a Pastafarians or anything else, you have to right to believe in whatever you want as long as you don't try and force that on me.

Of course I sure my views on the tax exempt status of religions would probably not please you, as I feel every organization should pay taxes.
 
If atheism is a lack of theism and you have never been told there is theism then what are you an atheist about? You cannot be saying an atheist is completely ignorant of the existence of theism. They go hand in hand we cannot have one without the other. Atheism is nothing more than a response to theism.
Complete and total nonsense. Atheism is the lack of theism. Just as someone who is amoral lacks morals. You are not automatically given morals magically and then reject them to become amoral. If you have no morals at all, then you are amoral. Just as if you have no religious belief whatsoever, you are atheist.

No, we are all naturally born without knowledge of a god. That is ignosticism. To be an atheist requires some knowledge of a god in order to say you lack any belief in it.

Total BS. Who gave this knowledge of a divine being to a new born? Religion requires someone to teach it. It does not just magically appear upon birth. Whereas nobody is required to teach atheism, because everyone is a natural born atheist until they are taught theism.

Even as an atheist i have faith in some things that i take for granted will happen. Faith is not the exclusive property of theists that is just christians being there usual thieving selves by claiming it is a god thing.
You clearly don't know the meaning of atheist. No atheist has faith.

And anti theism is something that is quite useful at times especially when some fool christian demand that their morality be made into law.
Anti-theists are all about hatred, and nothing else. That is never useful.
 
I've heard that before but that's not the definition of atheist. That is however the definition of an apatheist.



No. Atheist do care about the existence/nonexistence of a supernatural being as a subject of attention or debate. An apatheist simply doesn't care about the subject/debate. "An apatheist is someone who is not interested in accepting or rejecting any claims that gods exist or do not exist. The existence of god(s) is not rejected, but may be designated irrelevant."
 
You're right, I took a binary approach, my bad. I always tend to think of agnostics as the chill uncle, enjoying a spliff while the rest of the family fights at Thanksgiving...hehe...

Please, if you would like to give the agnostic point of view, I'd welcome it.



I haven't much idea what the agnostic view would be, other than definitional (still subject to varying agnostic opinion). I could only give my own opinion to your point, which I believe applies to just about everything, not just religion, and except my family. But you got me right on chill unks, at least since I left atheism behind.
 
No. Atheist do care about the existence/nonexistence of a supernatural being as a subject of attention or debate. An apatheist simply doesn't care about the subject/debate. "An apatheist is someone who is not interested in accepting or rejecting any claims that gods exist or do not exist. The existence of god(s) is not rejected, but may be designated irrelevant."

Someone who doesn't accept or reject a God doesn't believe in one thus atheist.
 
Jehovah, in full justice, could have put an end to all sinful mankind long ago...this alone exalts all the more the greatness of his mercy and undeserved kindness in saving some of mankind for life...John 3:36...He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked...Ezekiel 18:23, 32; 33:11...He will not/cannot allow the wicked to escape the execution of his justice/judgment...Amos 9:2-4; Romans 2:2-9...

that's a cause of conflict between us right their its not objective justice ( nothing could be ) to not murdering everyone you don't approve of because they wont do everything you want

not murdering you because you try to serve me as best you can is not an action of mercy or kindness

ther is no objective justice especially in murdering people who don't threaten you

sin is not objectively bad if its is only what bothers someone else

if you feel your god has the right to kill you have fun with that but you seem like the most vile and evil of skum to me if your ok with having me killd to please yourself
 
Thanks, Blarg.

So, given that point number 1 is kind of the pillar (to a point, that we could discuss in another thread - briefly, though, I say there's plenty of room to debate interpretations of the Bible) of following a religion, I have to ask for clarification. What, a little more specifically, is the change you'd like to see here...if you don't mind. :)

As for points 2 - 4, as a Christian I couldn't agree more. Do you think that the fact that there are many Christians that would agree with you indicates that this is a Christian problem, or a people problem? Are there any other groups that you would present those same points to?

not sure its pillar of religion though it is populer, you could follow a religion or god because you feel its ways are what you like best without belvings its right for anyone or everyone just because it is .

2 includes not supporting the gods themselves christianity seems to be founded on the idea that people deserve to suffer endlessly or die for humanity not obeying its god absolutely and people only avoid that because the god hurt itself/its son in are place.


i said theists and i mean theists many christians would have to change to follow these demands as best they could ( 4 is tricky for everyone ) thought this would come as a surprise to many of them

these are common ( 2 may be universal you would need to heavily modify what a christ is to find a way around that it would have to be someone who saved you time with advice you found helpful instead of some one who ways you must follow to be ok ) problems i have with christians

this applies to muslims jews, hindu and any one else with demanding judging gods and or any one else who makes demands/judgments in the name of gods

ther is no reason to single out christianity

so 1-3 are problems i have with theists may have a very similar problem to 1 and 2 with some atheists

4 seems like a universal problem
 
Complete and total nonsense. Atheism is the lack of theism. Just as someone who is amoral lacks morals. You are not automatically given morals magically and then reject them to become amoral. If you have no morals at all, then you are amoral. Just as if you have no religious belief whatsoever, you are atheist.



Total BS. Who gave this knowledge of a divine being to a new born? Religion requires someone to teach it. It does not just magically appear upon birth. Whereas nobody is required to teach atheism, because everyone is a natural born atheist until they are taught theism.

You clearly don't know the meaning of atheist. No atheist has faith.

Anti-theists are all about hatred, and nothing else. That is never useful.

Re: the bolded - yes. They are the other side of the Westboro coin.
 
Yes, I don't care if you're a Christian, Muslim, or a Pastafarians or anything else, you have to right to believe in whatever you want as long as you don't try and force that on me.

Of course I sure my views on the tax exempt status of religions would probably not please you, as I feel every organization should pay taxes.

Meh...you'd be surprised. I think that if churches make a profit, they should absolutely pay taxes. That's not the purpose of the Church. I would support a tax structure for churches, so long as only profit is taxed. And, so long as existing churches are given some kind of grandfather clause, I'd support new churches paying property tax as well. The grandfather clause would be to protect against this being a death blow to little old churches that you're probably not thinking about when advocating for this anyway. Basically, it's not a non starter for me. The Church needs to be a good citizen, just like any other organization. We all need to keep an open mind on how to do this fairly. A lot of "tax the churches" folks I see seem to have punitive motivations, which isn't the fair solution either.

Also, Pastafarians have the best parties. Though Irish Catholics are a close second. ;)
 
not sure its pillar of religion though it is populer, you could follow a religion or god because you feel its ways are what you like best without belvings its right for anyone or everyone just because it is .

2 includes not supporting the gods themselves christianity seems to be founded on the idea that people deserve to suffer endlessly or die for humanity not obeying its god absolutely and people only avoid that because the god hurt itself/its son in are place.


i said theists and i mean theists many christians would have to change to follow these demands as best they could ( 4 is tricky for everyone ) thought this would come as a surprise to many of them

these are common ( 2 may be universal you would need to heavily modify what a christ is to find a way around that it would have to be someone who saved you time with advice you found helpful instead of some one who ways you must follow to be ok ) problems i have with christians

this applies to muslims jews, hindu and any one else with demanding judging gods and or any one else who makes demands/judgments in the name of gods

ther is no reason to single out christianity

so 1-3 are problems i have with theists may have a very similar problem to 1 and 2 with some atheists

4 seems like a universal problem

Mmmm...obedience is a pretty central theme, I'm afraid...hehe... For me it's one of the more challenging aspects of faith, to be honest. But I think I get what you're saying, and if I'm reading you right, I agree - it's always supposed to be a personal decision, a personal faith, and a personal obedience - with the exception of teaching your faith to your family...the whole "while you're under my roof" thing. But even there I think it's important to be careful. We all want to pass on the things that are important to us down to our kids. But I think you need to be open to the fact that they may not want them, as sad as that might be for you. I had a buddy, who's dad was the third generation of plumber - the business had been handed down father to son. He wanted his own son to take over the business, but there was no interest. They still don't talk, and this was years ago. I don't want that to happen with my son and I around religion, so while I tell him what I believe, I expose him to it through taking him to Church, if he ever comes to me and says "Dad, this isn't for me", well, it will make me sad, but I'll accept it and love him anyway. It will be a personal disappointment, not anything I would saddle him with.

As for the rest of your response, I think I might have been misunderstood. What I meant was, do you see your concerns in other, non-religious groups? If you replaced the theist language with more secular words - ideology or system instead of faith, for example - would the same behavior present in other demographics, as you have highlighted in theist ones? The purpose of the question is to determine whether these problematic behaviors are unique to theist organizations. If so, then we have a problem with religion. If not, then the root cause is TBD. This is not an attempt to excuse these behaviors. It is simply an attempt to figure out if these things stand in the way of this reconciliation specifically, or part of a bigger problem, that perhaps many of us are guilty of, irrespective of our religious status.
 
Someone who doesn't accept or reject a God doesn't believe in one thus atheist.


You're making-up an interpretation not accepted by authority on the subject. An apatheist does not hold a position on non-belief. So, no, you can't say that an apatheist "doesn't believe in one (god). Still, apatheism is a relatively new and untrod area of view on the existence of a supernatural being. After all, there are people who ID as atheists yet believe in a supernatural spirit of some kind that could include an anthropomorphic god, among others.

Apatheism - Wikipedia
 
Huh...interesting response.

So, let's bring it back to the topic of this thread, which is reconciliation. How do you think your response fits in? I mean, it's clearly meant to be snarky. Do you see yourself as part of the solution, or part of the problem?

In order to reconcile we need to agree on what words mean. Theists telling lies about atheism being faith based as they have done on this thread is a good example of how we cannot reconcile. My debate with clax is about defining the word atheist and agnostic.

And snarky? To clax no, but then he is following the conversation where as you just butted in without even bothering to. Were you having a go at me or just not following the thread?

And i believe i have asked you this without getting an answer. What is this problem and why should i seek a solution. Is arrogant superstition worth keeping around?
 
In order to reconcile we need to agree on what words mean. Theists telling lies about atheism being faith based as they have done on this thread is a good example of how we cannot reconcile. My debate with clax is about defining the word atheist and agnostic.

And snarky? To clax no, but then he is following the conversation where as you just butted in without even bothering to. Were you having a go at me or just not following the thread?

And i believe i have asked you this without getting an answer. What is this problem and why should i seek a solution. Is arrogant superstition worth keeping around?

I was neither having a go at you, nor not keeping up with the thread. I also was also polite and respectful. I know I can't make you do anything, but I can at least respectfully request that you stick to the topic, without devolving into hair splitting. Also up to you whether or not you'd like to participate. But if you do, it sure would be nice if you gave your thoughts re: the OP.

As to why you should seek a solution, I mean, I can't answer that for you. Perhaps you enjoy the division. I'm sure some people do, and do everything they can to keep it going. There are always those folks in any situation. As to how I'd answer for myself, well, I'm tired of all the ugly, between people who otherwise would probably not be all that different. I see the need for greater cooperation going forward, not more division. I don't think we can sustain it. And, the side interest, is that if atheists and theists can accept each other's differences, perhaps we can share those learnings with other massively divided demographics.

So, you're saying that your inability to come to terms with the fact that some theists believe that theists choose to believe there is no god, vs you, who hold that it is not a belief that defines you as an atheist, but rather a lack of belief, is so angst inspiring for you, that it prevents you from believing there can be reconciliation?
 
You're making-up an interpretation not accepted by authority on the subject.
Who are these authorities on the subject?
An apatheist does not hold a position on non-belief.
but they don't believe so atheist.
So, no, you can't say that an apatheist "doesn't believe in one (god).
yes I can I just did.
Still, apatheism is a relatively new and untrod area of view on the existence of a supernatural being. After all, there are people who ID as atheists yet believe in a supernatural spirit of some kind that could include an anthropomorphic god, among others.
atheist means you like a belief in God. The root word of being theos which is Greek for God, not supernatural. Any word with the root word being Theist is about God not supernatural.
 
Meh...you'd be surprised. I think that if churches make a profit, they should absolutely pay taxes. That's not the purpose of the Church. I would support a tax structure for churches, so long as only profit is taxed. And, so long as existing churches are given some kind of grandfather clause, I'd support new churches paying property tax as well. The grandfather clause would be to protect against this being a death blow to little old churches that you're probably not thinking about when advocating for this anyway. Basically, it's not a non starter for me. The Church needs to be a good citizen, just like any other organization. We all need to keep an open mind on how to do this fairly. A lot of "tax the churches" folks I see seem to have punitive motivations, which isn't the fair solution either.

Also, Pastafarians have the best parties. Though Irish Catholics are a close second. ;)

I wouldn't support a grandfather clause, but I would say we will start taxing in x amount of time, give them a 2 year lead. There are plenty of churches that will never make a profit, so for them it shouldn't be a worry. Given that the little old churches that you're thinking about probably have never made a profit, and odds are never will, they are in no more danger of closing because of a income or property tax then they are now. In my state we have churches close down, because there isn't enough people to pay for the upkeep of the building or graveyards and the state is forced to take over.
 
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