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Thread: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    Will add one more thing, just for clarification's sake. I was careful with the word angry, which I took time to give a definition for in the OP, and I applied it evenly to both sides. This isn't the typical rant against "angry atheists".

    Just wanted to clarify where I'm coming from.
    And i go back to my point of asking why should i show respect to some of the beliefs theists claim. Anger is usually the excuse these theists give so as to not have to deal with someone pointing out how foolish there beliefs are. It is easy to claim someone is angry and then dismiss them. I would think you might be mistaking a lot of the so called anger here for what it really is, someone unable to justify their own position and covering it by calling the other an angry person.

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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    ....ignores correction on that point,...
    Hand waving and opinion are not "correction". Making claims comes with a burden of proof to justify those claims.

    ... and then misrepresents the point ....
    It appears you do not know what the Burden of Proof is or how it works. If you weren't able to provide your burden of proof for your claim, then your claim is without merit, and can be ignored. That's the way reasoned debate works. So it's not your opponent "misrepresenting" or "ignoring correction", it's you not living up to your burden of proof.

    The Burden of Proof: Why People Must Properly Support Their Arguments – Effectiviology
    The burden of proof is one of the most important guiding principles which are used in order to help people conduct discussions and resolve disputes in a proper manner. Specifically, each person has a burden of proof with regard to their own claims, so that if they want their claims to be accepted by others, they must provide proof which supports those claims, either as part of their original argument, or in response to their opponent’s questions.

    (bolding mine)
    Last edited by JustHanging; 11-08-19 at 06:26 PM.
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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Every single one of us has room to improve in how we regard and treat others, particularly those who are not of our "tribe" or affiliation.
    Agreed. And I am trying to improve.
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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    I would think you might be mistaking a lot of the so called anger here for what it really is, someone unable to justify their own position and covering it by calling the other an angry person.
    Exactly.

    The problem modern theists have is there are no new arguments for the existence of their god, it's all just rewording of the same arguments which has been debunked time and time again. With the internet, for every argument a theist makes, an atheist can immediately find the appropriate debunking. Some people have a hard time dealing with that.
    Last edited by JustHanging; 11-08-19 at 06:22 PM.
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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHanging View Post
    Hand waving and opinion are not "correction". Making claims comes with a burden of proof to justify those claims.
    Still misrepresenting? Or still misunderstanding? Which is it? You were corrected as to the philosophical distinction between contingency and necessity. There is no burden of proof here. I provided two links to reputable philosophical sites so that you might understand the distinction. Any burden here was on you, to learn the difference.
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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Still misrepresenting? Or still misunderstanding? Which is it? You were corrected as to the philosophical distinction between contingency and necessity. There is no burden of proof here. I provided two links to reputable philosophical sites so that you might understand the distinction. Any burden here was on you, to learn the difference.
    I think we should take this to a different thread. Numerous people pointed out that you had not met your burden of proof. Copying and pasting links to philosophical sites is NOT meeting your burden of proof.

    Why not take it back to your "Proof of God" thread, and lay out your arguments for necessity and contingent in a coherent fashion, with support for any claims you make? In other words, meet your burden of proof. But let's end this off topic debate on Nate's thread, agreed?
    Last edited by JustHanging; 11-08-19 at 06:43 PM.
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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Is bad faith not reason to write someone off?
    Of course it is. That's why I write you off.

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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHanging View Post
    Exactly.

    The problem modern theists have is there are no new arguments for the existence of their god, it's all just rewording of the same arguments which has been debunked time and time again. With the internet, for every argument a theist makes, an atheist can immediately find the appropriate debunking. Some people have a hard time dealing with that.
    I don't mind a point/counterpoint at all; robust discussion should challenge us all to think about our own ideas from others' perspectives, and reason requires us to acknowledge when someone else has made a fair point.

    Sadly, this is too-often rare, and I mean DP-wide rather than just this forum. Making unfair and arch blanket generalizations and using language to mock and belittle others defeats the reason why most people are here. Obviously, a few are here to show off or be abusive in a safe, anonymous setting, which I assume is a huge relief for them, or to proselytize about whatever their deal is. I'll generally just then abandon a thread as hopeless.

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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    I don't mind a point/counterpoint at all; robust discussion should challenge us all to think about our own ideas from others' perspectives, and reason requires us to acknowledge when someone else has made a fair point.

    Sadly, this is too-often rare, and I mean DP-wide rather than just this forum. Making unfair and arch blanket generalizations and using language to mock and belittle others defeats the reason why most people are here. Obviously, a few are here to show off or be abusive in a safe, anonymous setting, which I assume is a huge relief for them, or to proselytize about whatever their deal is. I'll generally just then abandon a thread as hopeless.
    Good post...it's called taking the high road instead of running something into the ground...
    "If you keep seeking for it as for silver, And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures; Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah, And you will find the knowledge of God. For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; From his mouth come knowledge and discernment." Proverbs 2:4-6

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    Re: Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    Starting Point: This is NOT a thread about the existence of God, or gods. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. In fact, I'm going to try to do my best to stay out of this one, outside of the initial question. Not making any promises, but that's the intent. I'm posting this to learn something. At most I'll ask for clarification, if required.

    Rather, this is a discussion around what it would take to bridge the gap we see here, between atheists and theists. We see a lot of angry posting here, that goes well beyond the academic debate of "real or not real", from both sides. Is there a way to deal with that anger, or is this a manifestation of the overly combative climate we find ourselves in generally?

    Of course I have my own thoughts, but I'm trying to leave this wide open.

    Important note: It is important to acknowledge that not all atheists and theists fall into the "angry" category. Many folks are happy to live and let live, irrespective of what camp they have landed in. If you are not "angry", which we'll define for this thread as going out of your way to disrespect someone for their lack of belief or belief as a starting point, then I am not attempting to say that you are.

    So...if you're "angry" at atheists, what would it take your to not be? And, if you're "angry" at theists, what would it take to not be?
    I think the major issue between religious people and atheists people or even religious people and other religious people is that they tend to talk past each other.

    Atheist see believers as hard-headed blindly following so forth and they talk to them as if that were the truth. And believers cats people mostly jaded or somehow angry with religion. And of course they talk to atheists as if that were true.

    The way to bridge the gap that is really simple listen to one another don't try to convert and don't make pre judgments about people.

    It's hard to do is specially if you're committed to your position. What I mean there is that there's emotion involved.

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