America is NOT a christian nation

Marxistleninist said:

The official U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

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The committee submitted their design to the Continental Congress on August 20, 1776, and on the same day they received a report that the proposed design was ordered "to lie on the table," which was a polite way of saying, “Thanks, but no thanks,” to the committee for their work.

Congress eventually delegated the responsibility to Charles Thomson—Secretary of the Continental Congress for its entire 15 year existence—to create a design after giving him the work of the previous three committees. Thomson's final design, approved by the Congress in 1782, was a combination of the elements provided by all three of the committees.

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tosca1 said:

Actually, the design chosen by those three were rejected, and so were two others.



Rejected Designs for the Great Seal of the United States | Mental Floss

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Originally Posted by Marxistleninist
The official U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

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tosca1 said:

Obviously, Jefferson and Franklin were both open to using Biblical-based symbols.
Both their designs had depicted scenes from the Exodus.

Excluding religion (theocracy), was not part of their agenda!

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Marxistleninist said:

The words "under God," did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them. Likewise, Congress mandated that "In God We Trust" appear on all currency only in 1955, and it was absent from paper currency prior to 1957. (It appeared on some coins earlier, as did other sundry phrases, such as "Mind Your Business.") "In God We Trust" was belatedly adopted as our national motto in 1956. The official U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

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Annuit Coeptis reflects the mottoes suggested by the third committee (Deo Favente) as well as by the first committee (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God).

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At the pinnacle of the pyramid is a triangle containing a single eye surrounded by the sun’s rays known as a sunburst. What could this possibly symbolize? The answer is revealed in the thirteen-letter motto immediately above the eye – “ANNUIT COEPTIS.” Translated into English, it reads: “HE (GOD) HAS FAVORED OUR UNDERTAKINGS.” Thus the eye symbolizes that God is atop or leading our nations. Yes, our Founders felt God had established a new order for the ages and that the Coat of Arms should reflect this most noteworthy characteristic of our nation.

Further Insights
Why did William Barton and Charles Thomson choose these symbols of the pyramid, eagle, etc? While our answer cannot be definitive, much can be surmised from the historical record.
Our Founders were strongly religious and Bible students. They, especially Franklin, Jefferson, and Adams, drew a parallel between the Israelite’s deliverance from Egyptian slavery and their own deliverance from England. Therefore, could it be a coincidence that our national Seal contains a pyramid, foremost monument of Egypt, an eagle, golden radiance or sunburst, and a cloud? All these symbols were integral to the Red Sea episode.
Consider the Red Sea story and Israel’s deliverance from Pharaoh. The Israelites were protected by God by a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of cloud by day (Exodus 13:21). Remember the scene in the movie The Ten Commandments where the pillar of fire held back the Egyptians until the Israelites could proceed to cross the Red Sea? The account is in Exodus 14. Then, later God reveals that the Israelites were borne on eagle’s wings. “You have seen what I did to the Egyptians and how I bore you on eagle’s wings and brought you to Myself (Exodus 19:4). Eagle’s wings were a sign of divine deliverance and protection.
It seems, therefore, that our Coat of Arms revolves critically around Biblical symbols of divine protection, dependence, and favor – the eagle, and the eye with its sunburst “breaking through a cloud.”

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vegas giants said:

And yet we dont have a Christian symbol

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tosca1 said:

Christians worship the Abrahamic God!

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tosca1 said:

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Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

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tosca1 said:

Obviously, Jefferson and Franklin were both open to using Biblical-based symbols for the seal.
Both their designs had depicted scenes from the Exodus (which includes Moses parting the Red Sea)!

Excluding religion (theocracy), was never part of their agenda!

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"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution...In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not."
-James Madison

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ataraxia said:

The DOI was written by Thomas Jefferson. He was NOT referring to any Christian God. Here were his views on Christianity and its God:

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ataraxia said:

It was certainly Madison's. And he was the primary framer of the Constitution:

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Marxistleninist said:

Although it is the major religion

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

In 1797, America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written during Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

As to the Declaration of Independence

We are not governed by the Declaration. Its purpose was to "dissolve the political bands," not to set up a religious nation. Its authority was based on the idea that "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," which is contrary to the biblical concept of rule by divine authority. It deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, and so on, never discussing religion at all.

The references to "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence" in the Declaration do not endorse Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, opposed to orthodox Christianity and the supernatural.


Thankfully American was seen a a shinning light to my grandparents and other Jews who escaped Europe and the christian churches inspired pogroms

Where in America religion was a private matter

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tosca1 said:

I'm talking about the seal!

Look at your seal!

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the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
-John Adams

“There is nothing in which mankind have been more unanimous [founding nations upon superstition]; yet nothing can be inferred from it more than this, that the multitude have always been credulous, and the few artful. The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature: and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history... [T]he detail of the formation of the American governments... may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had any interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the inspiration of heaven... it will for ever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses... Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favour of the rights of mankind.

[A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States of America, 1787]”
― John Adams, The Political Writings of John Adams

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ataraxia said:

Many of those symbols come from the Freemasons. Washington himself was a Mason. Their "providence" is not really the Christian God.

I am quoting the founding fathers directly. I win!

Here is John Adams, one of the other 3 framers of the Constitution:

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tosca1 said:

You win?

I didn't know we're having a contest!
I suppose you think the first one who says she wins, actually won?


Okay, pay attention:
I'm not talking about the other symbols! I'm talking about one particular symbol!

Review what I've posted, and the articles that were given to explain how the design for the seal came about. Then....follow the logic of the explanations.

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"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries...Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?"
-James Madison

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ataraxia said:

What do you want me to conclude from that one Freemason symbol you have managed to find? That the founders wanted this to be a Christian nation because of that one symbol, but contrary to all their quotes?

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soylentgreen said:

But, however the doi does mention a god. ....

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tosca1 said:

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ataraxia said:

The DOI was written by Thomas Jefferson. He was NOT referring to any Christian God. Here were his views on Christianity and its God:

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minnie616 said:

I agree.

Most of the Founding Fathers including Jefferson were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans...

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Thomas Jefferson's Design
Jefferson was more ambitious and proposed designs for both sides of the seal.

Jefferson wanted an illustration of the Israelites' exodus out of slavery and bondage from Egypt for the front of his seal.


Benjamin Franklin's Design
The illustration above is based on the committee's revision of the design Benjamin Franklin submitted for the reverse of the seal.
Franklin had a similar idea to Jefferson’s and wanted to illustrate a scene from the Exodus of the Israelites. The seal would show Moses parting the Red Sea with Pharaoh and his chariots being overwhelmed by the waters with the motto: Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

Thomas Jefferson became so enamored with this motto he incorporated it for his own personal seal design.

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tosca1 said:

Whether he's a deist or not....whatever his views on Christianity are...….…..

…….does not change the fact that he submitted a design which was taken from the Bible!
Same with Benjamin Franklin. :shrug:





Rejected Designs for the Great Seal of the United States | Mental Floss

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vegas giants said:

But we are not a Christian nation

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The U.S. tradition of breakfast, presidents and prayer

The idea for a National Prayer Breakfast first came from a Methodist minister, but today religious leaders of many faiths attend, including other Christian denominations, Islam and Judaism.

The event has historically been an occasion for the president to acknowledge the role of his faith in the position of commander-in-chief and to address topics affecting religion.

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For 63 years, presidents have spent the morning of the first Thursday in February gathering with members of Congress and evangelical Christians for the National Prayer Breakfast.

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Faith first

President Dwight Eisenhower began the tradition with the first breakfast in 1953. While Eisenhower was initially wary of attending a prayer breakfast, evangelist Billy Graham convinced him it was the right move.

Speaking to an audience that included Graham, hotel magnate Conrad Hilton and 400 political, religious and business leaders, Eisenhower proclaimed that “all free government is firmly founded in a deeply felt religious faith.”
Today, “Ike” – the 34th president’s nickname – is not remembered as being deeply religious.
However, he was raised in a pious household of River Brethren, a Mennonite offshoot.
His parents named him after Dwight Moody, the famous 19th-century evangelist who likened the state of the world to a sinking ship and stated,

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tosca1 said:

I think, that's open to interpretation.
You're entitled to your opinion.

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vegas giants said:

You could have the opinion that we are a muslim nation....but you would also be wrong

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vegas giants said:

That's nice



But we are not a Christian nation

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tosca1 said:

The USA - a Muslim nation? Why on earth would I have such an opinion? :lol:
I'm simply giving facts!

Anyway.....think what you like. :shrug:

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AGENT J said:

no matter what you are calling "facts" nothing you posted makes it a christian nation, state or country though . . nothing :shrug:

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