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Praying for Protection

Omega Man said:
Again, another book, another author. We were discussing the pro-Jewish/anti-Gentile author of the Book of Matthew, and his lesson about pearls and pigs.


OM
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We are not discussing anything...you just like to argue...enjoy yourself...:2wave:
 
haymarket said:
As an American citizen born after the rights happened to previous people in our history?

No matter where any baby is born and when?
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Rights don't "happen".


OM
 
Elvira said:
We are not discussing anything...you just like to argue...enjoy yourself...:2wave:
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You're right, I was discussing with Logic Man. But you chose to join in the conversation, and now you're crying foul when I mention how we're having a conversation you voluntarily stepped in to? That's pure comedy gold.


OM
 
Omega Man said:
You're right, I was discussing with Logic Man. But you chose to join in the conversation, and now you're crying foul when I mention how we're having a conversation you voluntarily stepped in to? That's pure comedy gold.


OM
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You said yourself that is the acceptable thing to do...guess it only applies to you...:2razz:
 
Elvira said:
That could be said of anyone who places their trust/faith in any mortal man...

"Do not put your trust in princes
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:3,4
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I would be happy if Trump supporters did not put their trust in princes, rather than cheering them on like some kind of prophet of God.
 
Elvira said:
You said yourself that is the acceptable thing to do...guess it only applies to you...:2razz:
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Where did I say it was unacceptable for you to step into a conversation? Oh yeah, I didn't say that. I'm merely amused that you volunteered to enter a discussion, and then somehow objected to my acknowledging that you and I were now in a discussion. Nothing more, nothing less. And yes, you are free to step into any conversation within this forum that you see fit. That's what it's for! Just don't object to others acknowledging that you are indeed part of the conversation. ;)


OM
 
RAMOSS said:
There does not seem to be a consistent list. That is an indication it is a political tool, rather than anything else.
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I suspect such a list would differ from person to person, from country to country anyway.
 
Omega Man said:
Of course I do; they're just not granted. Again, you have conflated natural rights and privileges.


OM
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No one has rights. We have the ability to live and take actions in our life. You have conflated rights with abilities.
 
jmotivator said:
...a person has the right to feed themselves, so getting in the way of them feeding themselves infringes on the right...
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What if there's a famine

You speak of rights That don't exist...the people of North Korea are apparently starving. How can they be denied that right ?
The answer is because their government hasn't granted it

If you're hungry in the USA - to who do you address you claim for food ?


...indeed, and you know that to be wrong...
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I do, but they didn't acknowledge slavery to be wrong. The Bible even gives instructions on how to keep an (Israelite) slave
Are we saying natural rights have changed over the years ?

...I do...
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What if a court finds you guilty of a capital offense and the state observes capital punishment ?
And what if you're innocent anyway

Your right to life extends to how far your government will grant it

...a right isn't a guaranteed outcome, as I discussed before. It is the ability to seek a desired outcome....
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I seek to win the lottery jackpot - that is pretty desirable to me. Is that a natural right ?


...I am arguing for what individuals seek for themselves...
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You're still arguing for what you wish to be the case. Of course a man can wish for anything...whether he can peruse that wish is the contention.
In all cases, it's determined by his government

...you display your understanding of natural rights in the "should"....
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Yes we "should" but it's tempered by whether we "could". And who determines that ?

(cont'd)
 
Omega Man said:
Of course I do; they're just not granted. Again, you have conflated natural rights and privileges.


OM
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And, you can not show that 'natural rights' actually are more than a political tool, and a man made concept.
 
devildavid said:
No one has rights. We have the ability to live and take actions in our life. You have conflated rights with abilities.
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And no matter what rights you imagine you have, you have little ability to stop others from taking it.
 
Omega Man said:
I am born with them.


OM
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Again: please provide the human development, biological, or medical research that supports this. Where is that scientific proof?
 
jmotivator said:
No, not really. Basic needs are a product of the actions, not the rights themselves. A person has the right to feed themselves, so getting in the way of them feeding themselves infringes on the right. It's a chief difference in the two philosophies, natural rights see rights as processes while man-made-rights see rights as outcomes. The former requires less government and more freedom while the latter requires more government and less freedom.



Indeed, and you know that to be wrong, and you know that because their is an immutable truth that such acts are wrong.



I do.



A right isn't a guaranteed outcome, as I discussed before. It is the ability to seek a desired outcome. Bad outcomes don't negate the right to seek better outcomes.




No, I am arguing for what individuals seek for themselves. A right is not a shared ideal, it is an individual ideal. You may find happiness in assisting others in their own goal to be happy, well fed, free... it is a nobel goal, but their right to happiness does not require that you assist them as such a demand infringes on your own rights.



You display your understanding of natural rights in the "should".

(cont'd)
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Getting in the way of someone feeding themself is infringing on their need and ability to feed themselves. No rights are involved that aren't granted by and backed by the society you exist in. If they exist in a competitive, might makes right society then its whoever competes the best. There is no should, except as dictated and backed up by each society.
 
Lursa said:
And no matter what rights you imagine you have, you have little ability to stop others from taking it.
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Our abilities to secure our rights comes from the social structure we find ourselves in. Without any backing from society the concept of rights means nothing.
 
jmotivator said:
They do exist. I never said that they are universally attainable...
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Then we differ - a right that's not attainable doesn't exist

If a US Muslim claimed a natural right to perform an honor killing, does he have that right ?

...the state has not granted me the right to live. The state does not grant me my freedom. The state can grant me happiness.

Those things are mine from conception, and they remain mine...
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If you can't exercise it, you don't have it
You're like a slave saying he should be free

Natural rights exist on in a person's Utopia of the mind.

It's a wish list and nothing more.

...rights are highly personal, that is the point of rights. You only know you have them when others try to take them from you...
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No, you're speaking about liberties and state granted rights


...False. My life and liberty are mine, people may deny me my rights, but that doesn't mean they aren't mine...
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Your mind is yours while you have it

...consider your cell phone.. do you own it? By your way of thinking you don't. You are just holding it for the person who will eventually take it from you. Now, who owns your life? Is it you or the person who might take it from you one day? {/quote]

Poor question, ownership is a legal status, theft is illegal

...a right doesn't exist only because you exercise it...
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No, a right exists if you have the ability to exercise it


...the government denying you the free expression of a right does not mean the right doesn't exist....
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Yes it does

If you government denies you what you think is/should be a right, then you don't have it.
Again you're confused with what should be the case

..."what THEY should be allowed to do" full stop, that is infringing on the rights of others. You don't have that right...
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No, I meant you might have a different list of rights you should have..another man might have a diiferent list
You might disagree with his list and he with yours.
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RAMOSS said:
There does not seem to be a consistent list. That is an indication it is a political tool, rather than anything else.
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It is a personal wish list...two men might have different lists and violently disagree with the list of the other

So who is right?
 
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Rich2018 said:
It is a personal wish list...two men might have different lists and violently disagree with the list of the other

So ho is right?
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If it is a political tool, and a metaphysical concept, then, either, both or neither, and it could all be the same. It's just one big opinion.
 
Omega Man said:
Which doesn't negate my natural rights. They may suspend my privileges; but only temporarily, and will never erase my natural rights....
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If you're arrested you normally have the right to an attorney - this isn't a privilege. It can't be taken away unless it's by a change of law.

The state can restrict your authority to drive a car without a change in law because driving is a privilege not a right.


...ultimately you can have what's willingly given to you...
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Not sure I understand but on the face of it, I agree


...providing a "list" sounds rather unnatural...
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As well as impossible for all men.
 
RAMOSS said:
If it is a political tool, and a metaphysical concept, then, either, both or neither, and it could all be the same. It's just one big opinion.
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Exactly


It's an opinion

A human and personal opinion.
 
Omega Man said:
It is sad to see you reject the truth that "pig/swine" was the favored Jewish pejorative directed towards Gentiles of the 1st century CE. Gentiles such as yourself.

OM
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Nope.

What do you think is going to happen to you when you belly up? You have a plan for that?
 
Logicman said:
Nope.

What do you think is going to happen to you when you belly up? You have a plan for that?
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And what do you plan to do when you discover you're wrong, and Satan has been influencing your attitude since that late 60's?
 
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