Page 1 of 32 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 311

Thread: Question about Jesus and Hell.

  1. #1
    Guru
    stevecanuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Canada / Australia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:51 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,596

    Question about Jesus and Hell.

    Could any of you who are intimately familiar with the bible please tell me if Jesus ever specifically talked about Hell, what Hell is, and who would go there?

    Thank you in advance.
    - See something, say something, get called an Islamophobe.
    - The absence of hostilities does not prove the absence of hostility.
    - Legitimate criticism is neither hate speech, phobic, nor incitement to commit violence.
    - I choose my words very, very, VERY carefully. - Jordan Peterson.

  2. #2
    Sage
    Elvira's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Down South
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,227

    Re: Question about Jesus and Hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    Could any of you who are intimately familiar with the bible please tell me if Jesus ever specifically talked about Hell, what Hell is, and who would go there?

    Thank you in advance.
    Jesus said he himself would go to hell for 3 days but God would not leave him there...Acts 2:27,31...
    "To this he said: I have not brought trouble on Israel, but you and the house of your father have, by abandoning the commandments of Jehovah and by following the Baals." 1 Kings 18:18

  3. #3
    User element94's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    08-14-19 @ 05:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    76

    Re: Question about Jesus and Hell.

    The bible really only speaks of it as sheol, or hades meaning the grave, the place we all are going. Hell is an old catholic scare tactic to keep the $money$ in the coffers through fear.

  4. #4
    Guru
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Flori-duh
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 12:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    4,149

    Re: Question about Jesus and Hell.

    Don't know, I'm not a bible expert and which bible?

    I know this much, I don't believe in either heaven or hell or god...and I went to catholic school for ten years before the barrage starts.
    When I stop answering you, there's a reason.......repeat, When I stop answering you, there's a reason.

  5. #5
    Sage
    Elvira's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Down South
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,227

    Re: Question about Jesus and Hell.

    Some people give the example of the rich man and Lazarus as proof there is a hellfire but they don't stop to reason that Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations, picturing a point he was trying to get across...

    “The beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom”? (Luke 16:19-31, King James Version) Since, as we have seen, Hades refers to mankind’s grave, and not to a place of torment, it is plain that Jesus was here telling an illustration or a story. As further evidence that this is not a literal account but is an illustration, consider this: Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that such a real conversation could be carried on? Moreover, if the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger? What, then, was Jesus illustrating?

    The rich man in the illustration stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God’s Son. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they thus came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the false religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57) So this illustration does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.
    What Kind of Place Is Hell? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
    "To this he said: I have not brought trouble on Israel, but you and the house of your father have, by abandoning the commandments of Jehovah and by following the Baals." 1 Kings 18:18

  6. #6
    Sage
    ataraxia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    13,103

    Re: Question about Jesus and Hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by element94 View Post
    The bible really only speaks of it as sheol, or hades meaning the grave, the place we all are going. Hell is an old catholic scare tactic to keep the $money$ in the coffers through fear.
    Well the story is a little more complicated than that. You are right that the concepts of sheol and hades are Old Testament concepts. They have very little to do with the Christian ideas of heaven and hell where the good are rewarded and the evil punished. That story is a bit more interesting than just having been invented by the Catholics.

    These ideas trace back to Persian Zoroastrian concepts, and started to seep in to Jewish thought after the intermixing of these cultures after the Persians freed the Jews from the Babylonian Captivity.

    Zoroastrianism is a "dualistic" religion, meaning there are two gods: a good of good (Ahura Mazda- the same Mazda after which the Japanese car company is named!), and the good of evil (Ahriman). These gods are at constant war, with humans as the chess pieces in this cosmic contest. The prophecies were that at the end days, there would be one final epic conflict between these two gods, and the god of good would prevail. Those who fought on his side would be rewarded by an eternity in heaven (the word "paradise" is actually an old Persian word "pardees", from the Zoroastrian holy book, the Avestas), and those who fought for the god of evil would be banished to an eternity of hell.

    After the Persian emperor Cyrus freed the Israelites from the Babylonian captivity, there was a huge amount of cultural interchange and intermixing. Cyrus himself married a Jewish princess (Esther- her story is told in the Book of Esther in the OT). He also was very impressed with the knowledge and wisdom of the Jewish prophet Daniel, and gave him a very high post in his court as an advisor. It seems it was here that these Zoroastrian ideas began to seep into Jewish thought. Because up until then, the OT was not at all about any epic battles between the forces of good and evil. As you say, ideas of the after life are not well developed in the OT before the Babylonian captivity. It was just a tale about the tribe of Israel, about the survival of the Israelites in a hostile world, and how their loyalty and covenant to their particular god, Yahweh, was going to allow them to survive and destroy their enemies because their god Yahweh was supposedly more powerful than all the other rival gods, like Marduk of the Babylonians. But after the interchange with the Persians, it started to broaden to such abstract themes of good and evil. It became more than just about the tribe of Israel.

    After a few centuries of these ideas percolating in Jewish culture, the end result was that eschatological stories of the Apocalypse and the end days had become so popular that they were like an entire genre of literature in Israel, like murder mysteries, or romance, or sci fi. In fact, in the Council of Nicea, there were so many to choose from that they wanted to include several of these stories. Others at the council thought these stories were really weird and none should be included. So finally they compromised, and chose the Revelation to John to canonize, and the other stories were destroyed.

    Incidentally, the "three wise men" who came to visit Jesus were the three "magi". "Magi" is the term for a Zoroastrian priest, like "rabbi" for a Jewish priest. They were supposedly following the prophecies of the Avestas to find Jesus.

  7. #7
    User element94's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    08-14-19 @ 05:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    76

    Re: Question about Jesus and Hell.

    Fine. I stated my opinion to get the point across, I don't like to spend too much time on the subject.

  8. #8
    Professor
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:01 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    1,664

    Re: Question about Jesus and Hell.

    The Bible also speaks of the a fire following judgment. Again, the context is figurative--Jesus in multiple parables and Revelation. What is literal is being cut off from something needed. The figurative is what is needed and how the separation occurs.

  9. #9
    Sage
    Elvira's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Down South
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,227

    Re: Question about Jesus and Hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Well the story is a little more complicated than that. You are right that the concepts of sheol and hades are Old Testament concepts. They have very little to do with the Christian ideas of heaven and hell where the good are rewarded and the evil punished. That story is a bit more interesting than just having been invented by the Catholics.

    These ideas trace back to Persian Zoroastrian concepts, and started to seep in to Jewish thought after the intermixing of these cultures after the Persians freed the Jews from the Babylonian Captivity.

    Zoroastrianism is a "dualistic" religion, meaning there are two gods: a good of good (Ahura Mazda- the same Mazda after which the Japanese car company is named!), and the good of evil (Ahriman). These gods are at constant war, with humans as the chess pieces in this cosmic contest. The prophecies were that at the end days, there would be one final epic conflict between these two gods, and the god of good would prevail. Those who fought on his side would be rewarded by an eternity in heaven (the word "paradise" is actually an old Persian word "pardees", from the Zoroastrian holy book, the Avestas), and those who fought for the god of evil would be banished to an eternity of hell.

    After the Persian emperor Cyrus freed the Israelites from the Babylonian captivity, there was a huge amount of cultural interchange and intermixing. Cyrus himself married a Jewish princess (Esther- her story is told in the Book of Esther in the OT). He also was very impressed with the knowledge and wisdom of the Jewish prophet Daniel, and gave him a very high post in his court as an advisor. It seems it was here that these Zoroastrian ideas began to seep into Jewish thought. Because up until then, the OT was not at all about any epic battles between the forces of good and evil. As you say, ideas of the after life are not well developed in the OT before the Babylonian captivity. It was just a tale about the tribe of Israel, about the survival of the Israelites in a hostile world, and how their loyalty and covenant to their particular god, Yahweh, was going to allow them to survive and destroy their enemies because their god Yahweh was supposedly more powerful than all the other rival gods, like Marduk of the Babylonians. But after the interchange with the Persians, it started to broaden to such abstract themes of good and evil. It became more than just about the tribe of Israel.

    After a few centuries of these ideas percolating in Jewish culture, the end result was that eschatological stories of the Apocalypse and the end days had become so popular that they were like an entire genre of literature in Israel, like murder mysteries, or romance, or sci fi. In fact, in the Council of Nicea, there were so many to choose from that they wanted to include several of these stories. Others at the council thought these stories were really weird and none should be included. So finally they compromised, and chose the Revelation to John to canonize, and the other stories were destroyed.

    Incidentally, the "three wise men" who came to visit Jesus were the three "magi". "Magi" is the term for a Zoroastrian priest, like "rabbi" for a Jewish priest. They were supposedly following the prophecies of the Avestas to find Jesus.
    Wrong...hell means the same in both the Old and New Testaments...the grave...

    Webster’s Dictionary says that the English word “hell” is equal to the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades. In German Bibles Hoelle is the word used instead of “hell”; in Portuguese the word used is inferno, in Spanish infierno, and in French Enfer. The English translators of the Authorized Version, or King James Version, translated Sheol 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version translated Sheol 64 times as “hell.” In the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the “New Testament”), the King James Version translated Hades as “hell” each of the 10 times it occurs.—Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.

    The Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades mean the same thing. This is shown by looking at Psalm 16:10 in the Hebrew Scriptures and Acts 2:31 in the Christian Greek Scriptures, which verses you can see on the next page. Notice that in quoting from Psalm 16:10 where Sheol occurs, Acts 2:31 uses Hades. Notice, too, that Jesus Christ was in Hades, or hell. Are we to believe that God tormented Christ in a hell of fire? Of course not! Jesus was simply in his grave.
    What Kind of Place Is Hell? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
    "To this he said: I have not brought trouble on Israel, but you and the house of your father have, by abandoning the commandments of Jehovah and by following the Baals." 1 Kings 18:18

  10. #10
    Guru Omega Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,989

    Re: Question about Jesus and Hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Well the story is a little more complicated than that. You are right that the concepts of sheol and hades are Old Testament concepts. They have very little to do with the Christian ideas of heaven and hell where the good are rewarded and the evil punished. That story is a bit more interesting than just having been invented by the Catholics.

    These ideas trace back to Persian Zoroastrian concepts, and started to seep in to Jewish thought after the intermixing of these cultures after the Persians freed the Jews from the Babylonian Captivity.

    Zoroastrianism is a "dualistic" religion, meaning there are two gods: a good of good (Ahura Mazda- the same Mazda after which the Japanese car company is named!), and the good of evil (Ahriman). These gods are at constant war, with humans as the chess pieces in this cosmic contest. The prophecies were that at the end days, there would be one final epic conflict between these two gods, and the god of good would prevail. Those who fought on his side would be rewarded by an eternity in heaven (the word "paradise" is actually an old Persian word "pardees", from the Zoroastrian holy book, the Avestas), and those who fought for the god of evil would be banished to an eternity of hell.

    After the Persian emperor Cyrus freed the Israelites from the Babylonian captivity, there was a huge amount of cultural interchange and intermixing. Cyrus himself married a Jewish princess (Esther- her story is told in the Book of Esther in the OT). He also was very impressed with the knowledge and wisdom of the Jewish prophet Daniel, and gave him a very high post in his court as an advisor. It seems it was here that these Zoroastrian ideas began to seep into Jewish thought. Because up until then, the OT was not at all about any epic battles between the forces of good and evil. As you say, ideas of the after life are not well developed in the OT before the Babylonian captivity. It was just a tale about the tribe of Israel, about the survival of the Israelites in a hostile world, and how their loyalty and covenant to their particular god, Yahweh, was going to allow them to survive and destroy their enemies because their god Yahweh was supposedly more powerful than all the other rival gods, like Marduk of the Babylonians. But after the interchange with the Persians, it started to broaden to such abstract themes of good and evil. It became more than just about the tribe of Israel.

    After a few centuries of these ideas percolating in Jewish culture, the end result was that eschatological stories of the Apocalypse and the end days had become so popular that they were like an entire genre of literature in Israel, like murder mysteries, or romance, or sci fi. In fact, in the Council of Nicea, there were so many to choose from that they wanted to include several of these stories. Others at the council thought these stories were really weird and none should be included. So finally they compromised, and chose the Revelation to John to canonize, and the other stories were destroyed.

    Incidentally, the "three wise men" who came to visit Jesus were the three "magi". "Magi" is the term for a Zoroastrian priest, like "rabbi" for a Jewish priest. They were supposedly following the prophecies of the Avestas to find Jesus.
    I'm glad to see that somebody brought up the significance of Persian culture upon the Judeo-Christian ideologies, however both Esther and Daniel were fictional characters. Esther was borrowed from the goddess Ishtar, and Daniel from the Ugaritic legend of Danel (DNIL).


    OM

Page 1 of 32 12311 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •