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How does one debate ideology?

Grand Mal said:
Not in polite company. In the US, anyway. It's the same as debating religion now.
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It does seem that in a secular society politics has become the new religion. It would appear that people in general need some belief system to cling to in order to give them purpose. I don't see much difference between the evangelical Left of today (in the US at least) to that of the religious right of the 80s-90s. I couldn't stand Republicans growing up (still not the biggest fan) due to attacks on freedom of speech and the moral pedestal they liked to put themselves on as they tried to impose their values on others. Now we have segments of both parties that are essentially mirror images only the God one worships is the state.
 
HumblePi said:
When is equality ever bad? If equality only works for you in certain situations, then it's not truly equal, is it?
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When it is arrived at through force.

Friedrich A. Hayek
A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers
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Nap said:
When it is arrived at through force.

Friedrich A. Hayek
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If it hadn't been through force and protests, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would have never been passed.
 
HumblePi said:
You don't know anything about my work experiences.
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dude, I thought we were talking hypothets here, to establish a basis for dialog...o’coars I don’t know what you do, don’t make it personal.
 
Tlrmln said:
Actually, I'll do you one better, since you seem particularly hung up on one sort of "ideology."

Imagine that a few centuries of advances in AI and robotics automation lead to mass unemployment and concentration of wealth and, after a series of perfectly legal business deals, one family comes to own everything on Earth.

Their "ideology" is that, since they legally own everything, everyone else can eff off and starve.

Debate their ideology.
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id say our legislators are sleeping in the job, and AI folks don’t give one crap about what they could or if they should.
 
Nap said:
It does seem that in a secular society politics has become the new religion. It would appear that people in general need some belief system to cling to in order to give them purpose. I don't see much difference between the evangelical Left of today (in the US at least) to that of the religious right of the 80s-90s. I couldn't stand Republicans growing up (still not the biggest fan) due to attacks on freedom of speech and the moral pedestal they liked to put themselves on as they tried to impose their values on others. Now we have segments of both parties that are essentially mirror images only the God one worships is the state.
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A pessimist would see tribal warfare in the near future. An optimist hopes both sides become disillusioned, enlightenment being out of reach.
 
There is no debating ideology, in particular ideology void of any facts, like most mainstream conservative positions. That's why most responses to any valid arguments and facts are deflections, attacks on the person, dodges, and zero actual refuation

Grim17 said:
You don't anymore... The left has adopted identity politics and brands those they disagree with as racists in order to prevent any ideological discussion from ever taking place.
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See, deflection, and one based on complete lie and fiction. Anybody with a shred of intelligence and honesty can see the majority of liberal posts are paragraph or more arguments, supported by facts, reasoning, logic, links provided to back up points, and the majority of conservative posts are one or two one liner deflections, that just make statements with nothing to back it up, which does not refute any argument made, or worse, completely makes up a fictional position the other side never made and argues that
 
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Thingfish said:
id say our legislators are sleeping in the job, and AI folks don’t give one crap about what they could or if they should.
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What job are the legislators sleeping on? What legislation do you suggest they pass to solve this problem?
 
Tlrmln said:
What job are the legislators sleeping on? What legislation do you suggest they pass to solve this problem?
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cut off welfare for people having kid after kid after kid would be a good start. The planet can’t sustain all the jobs required, much less a Country already swollen with over spending. Allow other countries to solve thier own disputes and fix there own economy’s.
 
Thingfish said:
cut off welfare for people having kid after kid after kid would be a good start. The planet can’t sustain all the jobs required, much less a Country already swollen with over spending. Allow other countries to solve thier own disputes and fix there own economy’s.
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And let the kids starve. Great idea.
 
Grand Mal said:
A pessimist would see tribal warfare in the near future. An optimist hopes both sides become disillusioned, enlightenment being out of reach.
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A realist sees tribal warfare as inevitable. Enlightenment has already been attained, sadly we are sprinting away from it.
 
Children in Poverty
In 2016, 21.2% of all children (15.3 million kids) lived in Poverty USA—that’s almost 1 in every 5 children.

In 2014, the National Center on Family Homelessness analyzed state-level data and found that nationwide, 2.5 million children experience homelessness in a year.

Poverty USA
 
Omega Man said:
Both are about 1 out of every 6 children.


OM
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I figured it would be much higher for obesity, then again I live in Mississippi which has the highest obesity rates so my perception may be a little off.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
I disagree. I find way too many people "know" things they don't know, because they're not true. Yet, they'll pretend like it's true to justify their ideological position.

Like Communists and Socialists pretending that Stalin was a good guy, for example. I've had that conversation.
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...Do you not understand how someone can actually believe that actions you disagree with are a good thing by looking at it from a different perspective? Like, if they're ideologically motivated by the idea that a militarized dictatorship is necessary for the successful abolition of capitalism, like Stalinists are?

They aren't pretending, they're analyzing from a different set of criteria.
 
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Nap said:
I figured it would be much higher for obesity, then again I live in Mississippi which has the highest obesity rates so my perception may be a little off.
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Both obesity and hunger are caused by bad nutrition and a lack of readily available healthy foods. It is much more expensive and time consuming to prepare meals with fresh ingrediants from scratch than to push boxed stuff filled with artificial junk added.
 
RAMOSS said:
Both obesity and hunger are caused by bad nutrition and a lack of readily available healthy foods. It is much more expensive and time consuming to prepare meals with fresh ingrediants from scratch than to push boxed stuff filled with artificial junk added.
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So the UN shouldn't provide food relief to people in drought hit countries.
 
Thingfish said:
cut off welfare for people having kid after kid after kid would be a good start. The planet can’t sustain all the jobs required, much less a Country already swollen with over spending. Allow other countries to solve thier own disputes and fix there own economy’s.
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How does that even remotely relate to the scenario I set forth?
 
Rich2018 said:
So the UN shouldn't provide food relief to people in drought hit countries.
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They try. But, that is just a deflection about what we can do for our own people here.

We have the resources to help ourselves.
 
Jesse Booth said:
...Do you not understand how someone can actually believe that actions you disagree with are a good thing by looking at it from a different perspective? Like, if they're ideologically motivated by the idea that a militarized dictatorship is necessary for the successful abolition of capitalism, like Stalinists are?

They aren't pretending, they're analyzing from a different set of criteria.
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Sure they are. But your argument is saying that if anyone disagrees with you, then you're ideological. I disagree with that.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
Sure they are. But your argument is saying that if anyone disagrees with you, then you're ideological. I disagree with that.
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No, that isn't my argument, and I'm surprised you misunderstood my position so severely. My argument is that ideology, a system of ideas, is rooted far deeper in human psychology than most people appreciate, and that claiming to only focus on the "truth of what's best for society" is nothing more than being unaware of one's own system of ideas & the value judgments that shape your worldview.

My argument, in short, is that you don't know what the word ideology even means when you write it off as a bad thing, apparently for no particular reason beyond "Nazis and Commies are wrong."
 
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