[W:49]According to Christian theology.....

Logician Man said:

Has there ever been a time the universe was without it's living God ?

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Logician Man said:

Has there ever been a time the universe was without it's living God ?

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Logician Man said:

Has there ever been a time the universe was without it's living God ?

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Omega Man said:

Sure. We could just be a forgotten petri dish sitting in the dark on an upper shelf of a locked closet somewhere.


OM

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Mr. Invisible said:

Not to my knowledge of The Bible, no, there hasn't.

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Logician Man said:

Has there ever been a time the universe was without it's living God ?

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Logician Man said:

What about the 3 days after the crucifxion ?

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Logician Man said:

Has there ever been a time the universe was without it's living God ?

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Fine-Tuning

The four fundamental forces come into play both in the vastness of the cosmos and in the infinite smallness of atomic structures. Yes, everything we see around us is involved.

Elements vital for our life (particularly carbon, oxygen, and iron) could not exist were it not for the fine-tuning of the four forces evident in the universe. We already mentioned one force, gravity. Another is the electromagnetic force. If it were significantly weaker, electrons would not be held around the nucleus of an atom. ‘Would that be serious?’ some might wonder. Yes, because atoms could not combine to form molecules. Conversely, if this force were much stronger, electrons would be trapped on the nucleus of an atom. There could be no chemical reactions between atoms—meaning no life. Even from this standpoint, it is clear that our existence and life depend on the fine-tuning of the electromagnetic force.

And consider the cosmic scale: A slight difference in the electromagnetic force would affect the sun and thus alter the light reaching the earth, making photosynthesis in plants difficult or impossible. It could also rob water of its unique properties, which are vital for life. So again, the precise tuning of the electromagnetic force determines whether we live or not.

Equally vital is the intensity of the electromagnetic force in relation to the other three. For example, some physicists figure this force to be 10,000,- 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1040) times that of gravity. It might seem a small change to that number to add one more zero (1041). Yet that would mean that gravity is proportionally weaker, and Dr. Reinhard Breuer comments on the resulting situation: “With lower gravity the stars would be smaller, and the pressure of gravity in their interiors would not drive the temperature high enough for nuclear fusion reactions to get under way: the sun would be unable to shine.” You can imagine what that would mean for us!

What if gravity were stronger proportionately, so that the number had only 39 zeros (1039)? “With just this tiny adjustment,” continues Breuer, “a star like the sun would find its life expectancy sharply reduced.” And other scientists consider the fine-tuning to be even more precise.

Indeed, two remarkable qualities of our sun and other stars are long-term efficiency and stability. Consider a simple illustration. We know that to run efficiently, an automobile engine needs a critical ratio between fuel and air; engineers design complex mechanical and computer systems to optimize performance. If that is so with a mere engine, what of the efficiently “burning” stars such as our sun? The key forces involved are precisely tuned, optimized for life. Did that precision just happen? The ancient man Job was asked: “Did you proclaim the rules that govern the heavens, or determine the laws of nature on earth?” (Job 38:33, The New English Bible) No human did. So from where does the precision come?

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Mr. Invisible said:

Hmmm.... God is still around I would argue. However, I could see your argument if we look at Heaven and Hell on different planes of existence, if that makes sense.

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Elvira said:

Hi LM, I don't think so...the universe is magnificently designed...it was not by happenstance...



How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

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Logician Man said:

So God wasn't really dead for those 3 days after the crucifixion ? I'm asking because I was taught He rose from the 'dead.'

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Earth’s Ideal Features

Our existence requires precision in other respects as well. Consider the earth’s measurements and its position relative to the rest of our solar system. The Bible book of Job contains these humbling questions: “Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? . . . Who set its measurements, in case you know?” (Job 38:4, 5) As never before, those questions beg for answers. Why? Because of the amazing things that have been discovered about our earth—including its size and its position in our solar system.

No planet like earth has been found elsewhere in the universe. True, some scientists point to indirect evidence that certain stars have orbiting them objects that are hundreds of times larger than the earth. Our earth, though, is just the right size for our existence. In what sense? If earth were slightly larger, its gravity would be stronger and hydrogen, a light gas, would collect, being unable to escape the earth’s gravity. Thus, the atmosphere would be inhospitable to life. On the other hand, if our earth were slightly smaller, life-sustaining oxygen would escape and surface water would evaporate. In either case, we could not live.

The earth is also at an ideal distance from the sun, a factor vital for life to thrive. Astronomer John Barrow and mathematician Frank Tipler studied “the ratio of the Earth’s radius and distance from the Sun.” They concluded that human life would not exist “were this ratio slightly different from what it is observed to be.” Professor David L. Block notes: “Calculations show that had the earth been situated only 5 per cent closer to the sun, a runaway greenhouse effect [overheating of the earth] would have occurred about 4 000 million years ago. If, on the other hand, the earth were placed only 1 per cent further from the sun, runaway glaciation [huge sheets of ice covering much of the globe] would have occurred some 2 000 million years ago.”—Our Universe: Accident or Design?

To the above precision, you can add the fact that the earth rotates on its axis once a day, the right speed to produce moderate temperatures. Venus takes 243 days to rotate. Just think if the earth took as long! We could not survive the extreme temperatures resulting from such long days and nights.

Another vital detail is our earth’s path around the sun. Comets have a wide elliptic path. Thankfully, this is not so with the earth. Its orbit is almost circular. Again, this prevents us from experiencing death-dealing extremes of temperature.

Nor should we ignore the location of our solar system. Were it nearer the center of the Milky Way galaxy, the gravitational effect of neighboring stars would distort the orbit of the earth. In contrast, were it situated at the very edge of our galaxy, the night sky would be all but devoid of stars. Starlight is not essential to life, but does it not add great beauty to our night sky? And based on current concepts of the universe, scientists have calculated that at the edges of the Milky Way, there would not have been enough of the needed chemical elements to form a solar system like ours.*Scientists have found that the elements reveal amazing order and harmony.

Law and Order

From personal experience, you likely know that all things tend toward disorder. As any homeowner has observed, when left to themselves, things tend to break down or disintegrate. Scientists refer to this tendency as “the second law of thermodynamics.” We can see this law at work daily. If left alone, a new automobile or bicycle will become scrap. Abandon a building and it will become a ruin. What about the universe? The law applies there too. So you might think that the order throughout the universe should give way to complete disorder.

However, this does not seem to be happening to the universe, as Professor of Mathematics Roger Penrose discovered when he studied the state of disorderliness (or, entropy) of the observable universe. A logical way to interpret such findings is to conclude that the universe started off in an ordered state and is still highly organized. Astrophysicist Alan Lightman noted that scientists “find it mysterious that the universe was created in such a highly ordered condition.” He added that “any successful theory of cosmology should ultimately explain this entropy problem”—why the universe has not become chaotic.

In fact, our existence is contrary to this recognized law. So why is it that we are alive here on earth? As previously noted, that is a basic question that we should want answered.

How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

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Mr. Invisible said:

So apparently, The Bible actually really doesn't say a huge amount of where Jesus went during those three days. (I found this upon further looking into the matter.) However, he wasn't dead per se, physically speaking yes, but spiritually, no.

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Tanngrisnir said:

The Anthropic Principle addresses that bit of fluff.

There is no 'fine tuning'.

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Logician Man said:

Seems I recall something about visiting hell...not really sure about that though.

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Logician Man said:

Seems I recall something about visiting hell...not really sure about that though.

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Mr. Invisible said:

So did I. Apparently it depends on what sect you're from and what they believe.

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Elvira said:

So there is no fine tuning but yet it is constrained because of the necessity for human existence....yeah, that makes a lotta sense...lol...

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Tanngrisnir said:

It's not 'constrained' in the least. Human existence isn't 'necessary'. If conditions were different, we would be different.

Sorry, the Anthropic Principle destroys that nonsense you posted.

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an·throp·ic prin·ci·ple
/anˌTHräpik ˈprinsəp(ə)l/
noun
the cosmological principle that theories of the universe are constrained by the necessity to allow human existence.

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Logician Man said:

So God wasn't really dead for those 3 days after the crucifixion ? I'm asking because I was taught He rose from the 'dead.'

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Visbek said:

Yeah, there's this whole Trinity thing, along with the dual nature of Jesus.

Different denominations and sects handle it a little differently, but....

Jesus is asserted to be some combination of human and deity. The human part died, the divine part did not. I don't think it really matters if the human or divine part was the one that briefly returned to earth.

Jesus is asserted to be part of an eternal three-pronged entity. Thus even if we claim that the divine part of Jesus was temporarily dead, the Father and Holy Ghost continued their existence unimpeded.

If you are looking for logical or rational explanations, of course, you won't be satisfied. From the skeptical perspective, it's pretty obvious that the story of Jesus was "retconned" to make him a deity, thus the people who first claimed that "Jesus rose from the dead!" were not engaged in sophisticated theological discussions about the ontological structure of the Resurrection. That came later, and humans are pretty good at papering over or ignoring inconsistencies. So it goes.

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Elvira said:

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Acts 2:27 KJV

"because you will not leave me in the Grave, nor will you allow your loyal one to see corruption." Acts 2:27 NWT

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Logician Man said:

Has there ever been a time the universe was without it's living God ?

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