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Why I am Not a Christian

Ravi Zacharias doesn't understand the Problem of Evil, there are so many questions begged. First of all, he assumes his framework of a "moral law" as a deontological framework for ethics as the only valid foundation for ethics. This is an entirely separate debate, but Ravi just scores the point in his favor in order to assert his other point. If there is some kind of deontological moral law, that requires a moral law giver. You see how we can without evidence, merely climb a ladder of words to see the most remarkable things. Logic alone is insufficient, especially with fallaciously employed.

He then wonders how the atheist, who thinks must certainly have no moral law (lets say morality) should have no objection or judgement of god because they have no vantage place to start from ethically. EVEN if there were true, which it isn't, it still doesn't understand the particular realm of the issue of the Problem of Evil, which is that it is in particular an INTERNAL CRITIQUE (as mentioned in the OP) of a Benevolent form of Theism. Which is that it kind of adopts the worldview for the sake of the argument, to evaluate if it can be coherent.

Let's take another example, there was a recent story I heard on the Unbelieveable? Podcast which told the story of this Australian doctor who claims he was raised from the dead by Jesus. Let's grant that it was a miracle, he was raised from the dead. Yet, god is also omniscient, there are billions of people who go into cardiac arrest and that people are desperately praying for who do not get this miracle. Tragically my wife's best friend who just lost a young infant 2 years ago, have another boy who is at 5 months effectively vegetative for life after experiencing SIDS. There was such an outpouring of prayer from the church community that they were apart of, to heal the brain, but it was almost completely destroyed to the brain stem. In a world full of billions and billions of stories like that, the fact that god can intervene into the "evil" of the world to save one person, must necessitate that he is also passing over many many more people. Is it because some people believe and some don't? Is it totally random? Is it for some divine plan?

Such is the incoherence of a good god with an evil world, which doesn't mean that atheism is true, it just means that the evidence stands against a benevolent god to a significant degree when one take into account the suffering of creation.

God has set the life of man at 70 years, a little more if he is strong (Psalm 90:10). There's all kinds of reasons why more people aren't healed and their prayers are unanswered. Here's just five:

5 Reasons Why God Isn't Answering Your Prayers

And there's more.

By the way, Dr. Craig Keener's voluminous two-volume work on Miracles has hundreds and hundreds of documented miracles and healings, a good number with medical documentation before and after.

https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credibility-New-Testament-Accounts/dp/0801039525

As for Ravi Zacharias and evil, I think he understands it and free will quite well.

 
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I simply don't buy this framework for a Christian, is one really free? Was Adam in the Garden really free to do as he pleased? Why wasn't he warned about Satan? Why was the tree there in the first place? It seems rather it was always intentioned in the divine plan for man to fall, and therefore have a SINFUL NATURE, in which they could only then be assisted by grace in some fashion to do the good thing. So mankind from birth is born alienated and an enemy of god in their conduct because of one man's alleged "free choice." Let alone the problems with Adam that then arise, I think this is not a proper analysis of what the Bible says (if one adopts the Bible wholly at least) on man's nature.

Yes, Adam and all others have free will. Adam didn't have to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And why does God ask people to CHOOSE life if there's no free will choice?

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life..." Deuteronomy 30:19

And just because God doesn't (always) warn people about natural events doesn't mean those events provide evidence God doesn't exist.

Logicman: "So, the question to you, TrueScotsman, is this: Let's assume you are God for the time being. How would you - TrueScotsman - create man with free will and at the same time not allow him to do evil if he wants?"

You wrote: "I'm not god, I am a man, I could not possibly think that I as a primate I could conceive of an ideal reality."

So you don't have a good alternative! I'll take that as a concession that you can't improve on what God has instituted.
 
There has never, not even once, ever been a verified occurrence of "divine answer" to prayer; despite biblical assurances to the contrary.


OM
 
There has never, not even once, ever been a verified occurrence of "divine answer" to prayer; despite biblical assurances to the contrary.

OM

That's baloney. Dr. Craig Keener, in an interview in the following book, provided a number of examples and cases.

"The Case for Miracles," by Lee Strobel

Keener has also provided HUNDREDS of examples of DOCUMENTED healings and answered prayer in his book "Miracles".

In addition, in a poll referenced in Strobel's book, over 94 million Americans reported they've had one or more experiences that they believe was a miracle of God.
 
Yes, Adam and all others have free will. Adam didn't have to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And why does God ask people to CHOOSE life if there's no free will choice?

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life..." Deuteronomy 30:19

And just because God doesn't (always) warn people about natural events doesn't mean those events provide evidence God doesn't exist.



You wrote: "I'm not god, I am a man, I could not possibly think that I as a primate I could conceive of an ideal reality."

So you don't have a good alternative! I'll take that as a concession that you can't improve on what God has instituted.

Newp. The bible makes clear that there is no free will. Period.

If you'd bother to read it, you'd know that.
 
That's baloney. Dr. Craig Keener, in an interview in the following book, provided a number of examples and cases.

"The Case for Miracles," by Lee Strobel

Keener has also provided HUNDREDS of examples of DOCUMENTED healings and answered prayer in his book "Miracles".

In addition, in a poll referenced in Strobel's book, over 94 million Americans reported they've had one or more experiences that they believe was a miracle of God.

Those are called assertions. I am all too familiar with them; my mother, ordained with her own ministry of "healing" had also claimed "divine answers to prayer".


OM
 
Newp. The bible makes clear that there is no free will. Period.

If you'd bother to read it, you'd know that.

Sure you have free will. Kind of like when you have a gun to your head, you have the "freedom" to cry uncle.


OM
 
Those are called assertions. I am all too familiar with them; my mother, ordained with her own ministry of "healing" had also claimed "divine answers to prayer".


OM

No, they're DOCUMENTED cases. Read the mother loving book, OM. Read something other than your left-wing propaganda.
 
That's baloney. Dr. Craig Keener, in an interview in the following book, provided a number of examples and cases.

"The Case for Miracles," by Lee Strobel

Keener has also provided HUNDREDS of examples of DOCUMENTED healings and answered prayer in his book "Miracles".

In addition, in a poll referenced in Strobel's book, over 94 million Americans reported they've had one or more experiences that they believe was a miracle of God.

That's baloney. Not one single example is his book is documented.
 
God has set the life of man at 70 years, a little more if he is strong (Psalm 90:10). There's all kinds of reasons why more people aren't healed and their prayers are unanswered. Here's just five:

5 Reasons Why God Isn't Answering Your Prayers
This kind of counsel when a parent is praying for their child's life, when a whole community is praying for the life. These are all awful answers to give in the face of real tragedy. Who invited such a being to tinker with people's lives in such ways, taking children away because it appeases some plot point further down the road.

And there's more.

By the way, Dr. Craig Keener's voluminous two-volume work on Miracles has hundreds and hundreds of documented miracles and healings, a good number with medical documentation before and after.

https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Cred.../dp/0801039525
In lieu of arguments, you are just providing links to things I don't have the time for. I think if people really thought this literature was serious, they would put it up to much more serious scrutiny, but most I find is just fodder for the faithful.

As for Ravi Zacharias and evil, I think he understands it and free will quite well.
He basically just makes the same assertion which I criticized in your first response. Don't you have anything of your own to add, what do you understand about Free Will and Evil?
 
No, they're DOCUMENTED cases. Read the mother loving book, OM.

Documenting assertions is nothing more than documenting assertions. My mother used to do the same thing in her monthly newsletters.


OM
 
Yes, Adam and all others have free will. Adam didn't have to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And why does God ask people to CHOOSE life if there's no free will choice?
You: "Adam didn't have to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
Also you: "I think Adam has to eat from that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and God has to make it happen."

You made this statement on the foundation of this one:
“Is acquiring a knowledge of good and evil a prerequisite to coming into the likeness and image of God?"
You seem to think that the answer is yes, which means that ADAM HAD to eat. Which means that the fall was from all time predetermined in the plan of god for humanity, so no human even Adam has true autonomy. They are all alike born with a nature predetermined by god in order to achieve the ends he outlined from all time.

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life..." Deuteronomy 30:19
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (NIV)

Life and death indeed.
 
And just because God doesn't (always) warn people about natural events doesn't mean those events provide evidence God doesn't exist.
That's because you are falling for Ravi's misunderstanding of the Problem of Evil. Its not that he isn't warning them, the Bible describes a god who is integral to natural calamities and normal weather.

So you don't have a good alternative! I'll take that as a concession that you can't improve on what God has instituted.
You don't get to automatically claim this reality as yours, nor do I think we actually have what you describe in this reality. I think the idea of a god creating beings who suffer is very strange, what gives this being such a right, mere power or self-assertion of its own morality? Thankfully, there is very little evidence to consider these fictions are truth.
 
There has never, not even once, ever been a verified occurrence of "divine answer" to prayer; despite biblical assurances to the contrary.


OM
No possible way to verify it, which is unfortunate for the faithful, as it makes it an falsifiable claim as soon as they appeal to "secondary causation."
 
No possible way to verify it, which is unfortunate for the faithful, as it makes it an falsifiable claim as soon as they appeal to "secondary causation."

Which also completely undermines the biblical assertion that "ALL" prayer is "answered" (even if you don't like the "answer").


OM
 
As "all" prayers are "answered", I'm left wondering why:

a) Nobody has ever prayed to have a loved one's missing limbs restored.

or, if they have,

b) Why God has never seen fit, not even once, to restore missing limbs; and considered that as an "answer" to prayer.


OM
 
As "all" prayers are "answered", I'm left wondering why:

a) Nobody has ever prayed to have a loved one's missing limbs restored.

or, if they have,

b) Why God has never seen fit, not even once, to restore missing limbs; and considered that as an "answer" to prayer.


OM
Let's get a bunch of people with missing limbs to go into a faith healing hall and have them line up. Hey if Elijah could put god to the test, why not us?
 
Sure you have free will. Kind of like when you have a gun to your head, you have the "freedom" to cry uncle.


OM

Free will does not come without consequences...that is life...
 
Which also completely undermines the biblical assertion that "ALL" prayer is "answered" (even if you don't like the "answer").


OM
All just wasted cognition.
 
My argument will be structured as follows.

<snip for brevity>

Much more could be said about the problems with the Bible, but ask me your questions or give me your challenges regarding how I would answer arguments in favor or against the Bible. I think this particular issue of their unreliability makes all the other dominoes fall, so to speak.

Christianity is not an argument between good and evil, right and wrong, nor does it involve theology or dogma or Biblical interpretation, or anything else you presented in your lengthy argument.

Christianity is a relationship with the living Christ, i.e. God.

When you have that relationship you are a Christian regardless about what you think or have taught about all the rest.

And every human can have that relationship
 
My argument will be structured as follows.

Argument #1 | The Problem of Evil

Argument #2 | Problems with the Bible

Argument #3 | More Complex Explanations of Reality

Argument #1 | The Problem of Evil

The Problem of Evil is an internal critique of theistic worldview, which states that the level of observed evil is compatible with the idea that there is a benevolent god who has personal affection for each human being. I feel that the best way to portray this argument is to tell actual stories from history. Not just of particular people's experiences, but of massive impacts from the very spread of Christianity itself.

In the mid 1800s China was a powder keg, economic decline, natural disasters and humiliation at the hands of the British in the First Opium War left the Qing dynasty on the brink. This defeat by the British also opened up avenues for missionaries to begin spreading the gospel. One pamphlet landed in the hands ofa man, Hong Xiuquan who had been studying and failing to pass the civil services examinations. Upon one such failure, he had a nervous breakdown which led to a vision where he discovered he had a heavenly family, and that god lamented that all the people were worshiping demons instead of him and that the demons infesting heaven should be slain.

It would not be for a few years, when he failed the exam for the fourth time that he pulled out the pamphlets again, and the interpretation for him was affirmed. That he was the younger literal brother of Jesus Christ and that he was going to destroy the idolatry of Buddhism and Confucianism.

Due to the disruptions already taking place in China, many flocked to his cause and established a rebellious Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. This Total War became the largest internal conflict in Chinese history, and perhaps the deadliest in all of history. Estimates for the death toll from this war that started in 1851 and ended in 1864 range from 20 million to as high as 70-100 million people on the high end. (Link)

It is said that perhaps 1,000,000 people were executed when this "Heavenly Kingdom" was brought down. The Yangtze region's population was so diminished that labor became more expensive than land. Suffering experienced in this conflict is unimaginable, and if one were forced to endure or witness such a thing, I can scarce understand how they could believe there is a benevolent god who established this world.

Even if this is a "fallen" world, it seems that even spreading the "good news" can lead to untold tragedy, just by obeying the command to go to all the corners of the world to share it. This would then lead to many in China hating Christianity, quite understandably, but of course on Christian dogma this would portend their doom in Hell for rejecting the messiah. Kind of a double whammy to the Chinese people that this god is alleged to care about.

Argument #2 | Problems with the Bible

Recent Biblical scholarship has yielded a lot of ground on the falsehoods that were previously claimed by apologists and preachers concerning the books of the Bible. Largely none of them were authored by whom they have been historically claimed to be. Moses did not write the Pentateuch, and none of the gospels were written by their alleged authors. Paul is thought to have only authored 6 of the existing letters, with others missing (did god lose some books, why would those not have been included if found?).

Why should we trust individuals who often misuse a name, such as the pseudapigraphas written in Paul's name to be representative of god, when they are from the outset misrepresenting themselves? We have no idea how the vast majority of the Bible was constructed, who wrote the books, when exactly did they write them, etc. If the reports of Jesus are written by some random dudes who weren't even there, why should your eternity be destined on such an decision?

Much more could be said about the problems with the Bible, but ask me your questions or give me your challenges regarding how I would answer arguments in favor or against the Bible. I think this particular issue of their unreliability makes all the other dominoes fall, so to speak.

I'm like the guy from the quote attributed to Gandhi (paraphrased). "I like your Jesus; it's your Christians who give me the creeps."

I consider myself a Christian in the sense that I appreciate and try to live by the words attributed to Christ. But, I don't believe in him at all, nor do I think he is the guy who actually said all that stuff.

As for any of the other religious dogma: no ****ing way do I buy into it.
 
Christianity is not an argument between good and evil, right and wrong
I'm sorry, but there are innumerable actions condemns and encouraged in the Bible. It absolutely paints a somewhat dualistic worldview of good and evil, god and the world. Christianity comes with BELIEFS, pretending it doesn't is just silly.

nor does it involve theology or dogma or Biblical interpretation
YouTube
This pretty well argues that Paul, an author of at least 6 books of the Bible invented Theology.

Dogma has been a historical reality of Christianity since its inception, determining life and death for many, and the Biblical interpretation is of absolute importance to a Christian. Or was Paul wrong to say that anyone bringing a different gospel is anathema?

Christianity is a relationship with the living Christ, i.e. God.
Where did you hear about Jesus? How does one learn about this god, did they just sit quietly and then believe whatever cognitions come into consciousness? Or is there some Biblical interpretation involved?

When you have that relationship you are a Christian regardless about what you think or have taught about all the rest.

And every human can have that relationship
And most likely, that relationship is all in your heads, as I believe it was for me.
 
Free will does not come without consequences...that is life...

Yes, but life doesn't automatically put a gun to your head. Some religions on the other hand...


OM
 
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