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Was the fall of man necessary

Simpletruther

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A mathematical theorem exists that says whatever can happen, Given enough time, will happen.

This not only can be shown mathematically, it seems intuitive logically.

The non calvinists say that Adam’s sin was not necessary. That he could have (done otherwise).

Assuming this non calvinist view is true, logic tells us that the fall was still necessary and basically determined to happen any way(eventually) .
Adam was compelled to sin (eventually) by his nature of being able to. It was absolutely baked into the cake from the beginning, mathematically and logically.

So this idea fails to really resolve a big difficulty that some non calvinists have (that God determines evil) with Calvinism Because this still ends up being the case simply by the nature of how he created Adam, (capable of sin).

THoughts?
 
A mathematical theorem exists that says whatever can happen, Given enough time, will happen.

This not only can be shown mathematically, it seems intuitive logically.

The non calvinists say that Adam’s sin was not necessary. That he could have (done otherwise).

Assuming this non calvinist view is true, logic tells us that the fall was still necessary and basically determined to happen any way(eventually) .
Adam was compelled to sin (eventually) by his nature of being able to. It was absolutely baked into the cake from the beginning, mathematically and logically.

So this idea fails to really resolve a big difficulty that some non calvinists have (that God determines evil) with Calvinism Because this still ends up being the case simply by the nature of how he created Adam, (capable of sin).

THoughts?
There was no Adam. It's a myth.
 
Without the fall of man, man cannot judge God from a removed position thereby proving Lucifer wrong which is the whole point of the whole thing.

So, yes. Man must fall, or there's no point to any of it.
 
Adam did not 'fall' from the Garden of Eden, he rose from it. He became man.
 
No, Adam did not have to fall and if he hadn't, he would still be alive today...

But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:17
 
No, Adam did not have to fall and if he hadn't, he would still be alive today...

But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:17

That's not what god said.
 
Nope. Just talked to god.

Told me he didn't say that.

Sorry.

lol...ok...say if I tell my husband "the day you cheat on me our marriage is over" and what if he never cheats? Would our marriage be over? We would remain married...correct?
 
lol...ok...say if I tell my husband "the day you cheat on me our marriage is over" and what if he never cheats? Would our marriage be over? We would remain married...correct?

It tells me it would be irrelevant to anything we're discussing.

I literally JUST talked to god.

Thinks word games are stupid.
 
It tells me it would be irrelevant to anything we're discussing.

I literally JUST talked to god.

Thinks word games are stupid.

Nah, He thinks people without the ability to reason are stupid...
 
LOL! How on earth would you ever even begin to know?

Just talked to god again. Didn't know you.

Here's another for you to ponder...I doubt you'll understand this one either...:roll:

"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Romans 5:12
 
Here's another for you to ponder...I doubt you'll understand this one either...:roll:

"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Romans 5:12

Don't have to ponder anything. I just talk to the author.

God want's you to stop sinning.
 
A mathematical theorem exists that says whatever can happen, Given enough time, will happen.

This not only can be shown mathematically, it seems intuitive logically.

The non calvinists say that Adam’s sin was not necessary. That he could have (done otherwise).

Assuming this non calvinist view is true, logic tells us that the fall was still necessary and basically determined to happen any way(eventually) .
Adam was compelled to sin (eventually) by his nature of being able to. It was absolutely baked into the cake from the beginning, mathematically and logically.

So this idea fails to really resolve a big difficulty that some non calvinists have (that God determines evil) with Calvinism Because this still ends up being the case simply by the nature of how he created Adam, (capable of sin).

THoughts?

Man's behavior is not mathematical. There was never a time when man was in a position to fall. Man evolved from simple life forms. So if anything, man rose rather than fell. Religions tell us absolutely nothing about the nature of man.
 
Without the fall of man, man cannot judge God from a removed position thereby proving Lucifer wrong which is the whole point of the whole thing.

So, yes. Man must fall, or there's no point to any of it.

is it possible for God to judge God from a removed position?
 
is it possible for God to judge God from a removed position?

No, Jesus is not the judge of God. Humans, full humans who have never been in His presence, are to adjudicate against Lucifer and thus settle the Heavenly Conflict (the rebellion by Lucifer that serves as the impetus of man's creation).

No fall means no answer to Lucifer's question and thus no point at all to the entire Bible (from a Christian perspective). If man doesn't fall, we can't prove God right and Lucifer wrong from a removed position. Proving Lucifer wrong is the reason God created man.
 
There was no Adam. It's a myth.

I guess the point is to evaluate the myth. But, my problem with the myth is that it's dumb....and, rather misogynist.
 
No, Jesus is not the judge of God. Humans, full humans who have never been in His presence, are to adjudicate against Lucifer and thus settle the Heavenly Conflict (the rebellion by Lucifer that serves as the impetus of man's creation).

No fall means no answer to Lucifer's question and thus no point at all to the entire Bible (from a Christian perspective). If man doesn't fall, we can't prove God right and Lucifer wrong from a removed position. Proving Lucifer wrong is the reason God created man.

Hi ecofarm,
I'm probably off topic here. I wasn't asking about Lucifer, or Christ's relationship to God. Although your post has given me something to contemplate.

I was just wondering if God could judge his own actions, or even if he is self-aware. Probably should a separate thread.
 
I was just wondering if God could judge his own actions, or even if he is self-aware. Probably should a separate thread.

That depends on the definition of God. A deity is presumably self aware. A non deity I suppose not. But even if God is self aware, that doesn't mean capable of self judgement. In fact, if God's judgement of Himself was sufficient, He wouldn't have created man. There wouldn't have been a Heavenly Conflict resulting in mankind to settle it.

We must conclude that if God is capable of judging Himself, He finds that avenue of validation unsatisfactory.
 
That depends on the definition of God. A deity is presumably self aware. A non deity I suppose not. But even if God is self aware, that doesn't mean capable of self judgement. In fact, if God's judgement of Himself was sufficient, He wouldn't have created man. There wouldn't have been a Heavenly Conflict resulting in mankind to settle it.

We must conclude that if God is capable of judging Himself, He finds that avenue of validation unsatisfactory.

If a deity is self-aware, would that mean that the diety in question is not omnipresent?
 
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