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Capitalism is Incompatible with Christianity

Elvira said:
So we agree...Jesus was a perfect man without sin...
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No, for I feel the temple incident compromises your idealised view of him, as his behaviour denotes he wasn't as 'perfect' as you claimed. Did you not get that?

Do note that I don't fall for the goal post shift tactic.
 
NWO_Spook said:
No, for I feel the temple incident compromises your idealised view of him, as his behaviour denotes he wasn't as 'perfect' as you claimed. Did you not get that?

Do note that I don't fall for the goal post shift tactic.
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Wrong, Jesus condemned the merchants and rightly so....

Could the merchants who sold animals in Jerusalem’s temple rightly be called “robbers”?
ACCORDING to the account of Matthew’s Gospel, “Jesus entered the temple and threw out all those selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. And he said to them: ‘It is written, “My house will be called a house of prayer,” but you are making it a cave of robbers.’”​—Matt. 21:12, 13.

Jewish historical records show that temple merchants exploited their customers by charging exorbitant prices. For example, the Mishnah (Keritot 1:7) records an occasion in the first century C.E. when the price of a pair of sacrificial pigeons rose to a golden denar. That was the equivalent of what an unskilled laborer might earn for 25 days’ work. Pigeons or doves were an acceptable sacrifice of the poor; yet, the price even of these birds had become prohibitive. (Lev. 1:14; 5:7; 12:6-8) Rabbi Simeon ben Gamaliel, outraged by this state of affairs, reduced the number of obligatory sacrifices, upon which the price of two pigeons immediately fell to a hundredth of the former price.

In light of the above, Jesus was justified in calling the temple merchants “robbers” on account of their exploitation and greed.
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Did You Know? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
phattonez said:
NB: So is socialism.

There is no justification for an economic system that allows for unbridled avarice. We rightfully prosecute other sins, such as theft, murder, libel, and many others. Why would extreme avarice be any different? It's not good for the greedy man, nor is it good for society. There is no justification for it from Christ, the apostles, or anywhere. In fact, we see quite the opposite.



Given these moral precepts, why do we allow billionaires to have billions in dollars while the poor go without food and shelter? Why do we allow usury, when that is condemned repeatedly and aggressively throughout the Bible?

We do have a right to property, and we certainly have a right to invest as we see fit. That said, we do not have a right to hoard as much property as we like and neglect the needs of the poor. Such an idea is a corruption of Christianity and has no basis in good theology.
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Christianity might have been the first attempt at communism in human history.

Acts 4
32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all
34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.
 
NWO_Spook said:
That's the merchants. I was talking about the money changers and have been throughout the entire time I've participated in this thread.
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Same thing..pay attention....:roll:
 
distraff said:
Christianity might have been the first attempt at communism in human history.

Acts 4
32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all
34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.
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Communism is great as long as it’s voluntary. I don’t know if it’s true historically, but kibbutz’s in Israel have been around for a long time, ai’d surprised if they didn’t exist pre-Christianity.
 
Elvira said:
Same thing..pay attention....:roll:
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No it isn't, see John and cut out the snark Ms. Objectionable. Grow up.

"...And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves...

Note the conjunction between the money changers and the merchants.
 
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Ahlevah said:
Can you elaborate on that statement? I'm not sure where you're going with it. All I can say is I don't think Marx anticipated Facebook, but if you think the value comes from physical capital and not intellectual capital, you can have the water coolers and office chairs and I'll take the brains. ;)
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I am not sure any elaboration would help. Knowledge didn’t make anything. [emoji2369]

I can’t get water from a brain, nor relax from working on a brain. Deal.
 
Ahlevah said:
I've demonstrated that tremendous value and wealth can be created with little more than human capital. So any scheme to redistribute the "means of production," when that production is derived largely from human intellect and not physical capital, is just not facing the reality of a modern, developed economy.
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You didn’t demonstrate that. It required a lot more than “human capital” to make any of that. As if because computers and code have become so common place they can be considered a simple natural resource.
 
NWO_Spook said:
No it isn't, see John and cut out the snark Ms. Objectionable. Grow up.

"...And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves...

Note the conjunction between the money changers and the merchants.
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Note the reason for his equal treatment of them was from the equal judgment of their actions. I don’t think the conjunction means to separate them in the way you seem to be doing.
 
Aberration said:
Note the reason for his equal treatment of them was from the equal judgment of their actions.
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A given.

I don’t think the conjunction means to separate them in the way you seem to be doing.
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It does if one follows the conversation. Throughout the entire thread I've been talking about how he broke Jewish law with the money changer incident. Some seem to want to divert away from that with talk of merchants and money lenders. It is a diversion away from a controversial point.

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."
 
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NWO_Spook said:
No it isn't, see John and cut out the snark Ms. Objectionable. Grow up.

"...And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves...

Note the conjunction between the money changers and the merchants.
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Are you deliberately being obtuse? Deliberate or not, I can see this is going nowhere...let me know when you grow up and learn how to carry on an adult conversation...:roll:
 
Elvira said:
Are you deliberately being obtuse? Deliberate or not, I can see this is going nowhere...let me know when you grow up and learn how to carry on an adult conversation...:roll:
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Then we are done. Please do not respond to me in the future, as I have no time for your objectionable behaviour and inability to stay on the subject.
 
NWO_Spook said:
Then we are done. Please do not respond to me in the future, as I have no time for your objectionable behaviour and inability to stay on the subject.
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Right backatcha...
 
Aberration said:
Communism is great as long as it’s voluntary. I don’t know if it’s true historically, but kibbutz’s in Israel have been around for a long time, ai’d surprised if they didn’t exist pre-Christianity.
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The original community on the site of Qumran could be considered a cooperative or a collective.
 
NWO_Spook said:
A given.



It does if one follows the conversation. Throughout the entire thread I've been talking about how he broke Jewish law with the money changer incident. Some seem to want to divert away from that with talk of merchants and money lenders. It is a diversion away from a controversial point.

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."
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If it’s a given, then I don’t get why you’re arguing. He treated the money changers the same as the merchants for the same reason. They were multiplying their wealth. What Jewish law did he break, and how does that make him imperfect?

There is disagreement over Rom 13:1. Specifically over the Greek Exousia, what is translated there as “governing authorities”. I think Plato wrote a lot about that word which seems to disagree with that translation.
 
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phattonez said:
There is no justification for an economic system that allows for unbridled avarice. We rightfully prosecute other sins, such as theft, murder, libel, and many others. Why would extreme avarice be any different? It's not good for the greedy man, nor is it good for society. There is no justification for it from Christ, the apostles, or anywhere. In fact, we see quite the opposite.

Given these moral precepts, why do we allow billionaires to have billions in dollars while the poor go without food and shelter? Why do we allow usury, when that is condemned repeatedly and aggressively throughout the Bible?

We do have a right to property, and we certainly have a right to invest as we see fit. That said, we do not have a right to hoard as much property as we like and neglect the needs of the poor. Such an idea is a corruption of Christianity and has no basis in good theology.
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Completely agree with you, phattonez. The inequality we see in the world is an indictment of mankind's failure to live up to higher values. It's interesting for me to see these Biblical quotations about supporting the poor. The same sentiments are found in other Abrahamic faiths too, about feeding the poor and about how worldly wealth is no substitute for humane values.

The current world system is a mockery of the concept of justice. A tiny minority of the super-rich get disproportionate benefits, and whole companies of thousands of people are employed just thinking up clever ways to get out of paying tax, meanwhile people who do actual work that adds something valuable to society such as nurses, doctors, teachers and police are under-paid and are working round the clock on near minimum-wages. It's scandalous when you stop to think about it. We have our priorities very, very wrong as a society when ambulance-chasing lawyers and dishonest traders and bankers are scamming their way to millions of dollars while people who do good can barely afford to get by.
 
Elvira said:
So we agree...Jesus was a perfect man without sin...
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No. Not at all. Jesus, if he existed , was just a man, just like all other men. He was sinful to the end.
 
Aberration said:
Not necessarily. Sin is simply defying the commands of God. One could not defy God and still not be perfect.
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In biblical terms, "sin" is "missing the mark".


OM
 
Elvira said:
More thought than you evidently...the Hebrew word translated “sin” is chattath...in Greek the word is hamartia....in both languages the verb means “miss," in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point...Greek writers often used hamartano in regards to a spearman missing his target...both of these words were used to mean missing or failing to reach, not merely physical objects or goals but also moral or intellectual goals or marks...Proverbs 8:35, 36 says the one finding godly wisdom finds life, but the one missing...from Hebrew, chatath...wisdom is doing violence to his soul, leading to death....in the Scriptures both the Hebrew and Greek terms refer mainly to sinning on the part of God’s intelligent creatures, their missing the mark of perfection with regard to their Creator...
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Seems for once, from a biblical perspective, we agree. :)


OM
 
Logicman said:
Winston Churchill had a belief that if you cut off their charity the poor will have to scramble to find work.

Unfortunately there isn't enough money to satisfy poor people and the liberals. California tries, but that place is turning into tent city.
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Oh please. California has a higher GDP than all the red states... put together.
 
phattonez said:
It doesn't say socialism is wrong either, but are you going to sit there and tell me that socialism is okay?
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Socialism, for all its popularity in some circles, is not a biblical model for society.

In opposition to socialism, the Bible promotes the idea of private property and issues commands to respect it: commands such as “You shall not steal” (Deuteronomy 5:19) are meaningless without private property.
Unlike what we see in failed experiments in socialism, the Bible honors work and teaches that individuals are responsible to support themselves: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat” (2 Thessalonians 3:10). The redistribution of wealth foundational to socialism destroys accountability and the biblical work ethic.
Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25:14–30 clearly teaches our responsibility to serve God with our (private) resources.
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How should a Christian view socialism?
 
Aberration said:
If it’s a given, then I don’t get why you’re arguing. He treated the money changers the same as the merchants for the same reason. They were multiplying their wealth. What Jewish law did he break, and how does that make him imperfect?
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The law was the ban on graven images within the temple sanctuary. The money changers had to convert Roman coinage which displayed images of Roman gods to Tyrian Shekels in order for the population to pay the temple tax/tithe and/or purchase sacrificial animals. This is the very act that made Jesus a person of interest to the authorities.

There is disagreement over Rom 13:1. Specifically over the Greek Exousia, what is translated there as “governing authorities”.
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I'm sure there is disagreement ~ there is always disagreement over a word by some, but I am aware of the high level of scholarship among those charged with working on the Jerusalem Bible and defer to their consensus.

I think Plato wrote a lot about that word which seems to disagree with that translation.
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He probably did. I can't remember as I haven't studied Plato for some time, and without the source in context it's difficult to evaluate the relevance of such a disagreement.
 
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