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Angels in Stone: The Nature of Creativity

Cordelier

Cordelier

18th Earl of Diddly
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We're all aware of the creativity of nature... how it adapts to change, heals scars, and evolves. But what is the nature of creativity? What is it that drives us to push the limits? What fuels the impulsive need we feel for newer, shinier, better? Where does it come from? What's more, just because we can, does it mean we should?

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Statue of an Angel by Michelangelo, Basilica of San Domenico, Bologna

"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free." --- Michelangelo
 
Cordelier said:
We're all aware of the creativity of nature... how it adapts to change, heals scars, and evolves. But what is the nature of creativity? What is it that drives us to push the limits? What fuels the impulsive need we feel for newer, shinier, better? Where does it come from? What's more, just because we can, does it mean we should?

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Statue of an Angel by Michelangelo, Basilica of San Domenico, Bologna

"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free." --- Michelangelo
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Boredom?
 
zyzygy said:
Boredom?
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What's the nature of boredom? You've got this incredible mind - the end product of billions of years of evolution - and you live in a time where all of the accumulated knowledge of humanity is literally at your fingertips.... and yet your brain hungers for more sustenance. What drives the hunger?
 
Cordelier said:
We're all aware of the creativity of nature... how it adapts to change, heals scars, and evolves. But what is the nature of creativity? What is it that drives us to push the limits? What fuels the impulsive need we feel for newer, shinier, better? Where does it come from? What's more, just because we can, does it mean we should?
Statue of an Angel by Michelangelo, Basilica of San Domenico, Bologna

"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free." --- Michelangelo
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The lonely assassins. Don't blink.
 
RAMOSS said:
The lonely assassins. Don't blink.
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*L* I can appreciate Dr. Who as much as anyone... but as far as revealing the deeper truths of existence goes, it's probably not the best place to look.

"We're all stories, in the end. Just make it a good one, eh?" --- The Doctor
 
Angel said:
Creativity, it seems to me, is instinctive in Man.
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It's instinctive in animals as well... all you have to do is listen to a bird's song. In the animal kingdom, it's hard to think of examples of creativity that aren't geared toward reproduction and finding food.... but we've taken it far beyond those functions - why? And to what end?
 
Cordelier said:
It's instinctive in animals as well... all you have to do is listen to a bird's song. In the animal kingdom, it's hard to think of examples of creativity that aren't geared toward reproduction and finding food.... but we've taken it far beyond those functions - why? And to what end?
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The instinct in Man is augmented by the faculty for symbolism in Man, which is related to Man's perhaps unique self-consciousness.
 
Cordelier said:
but we've taken it far beyond those functions - why? And to what end?
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Cultural-ratcheting; culture-bearing primates who have evolved the ability to think abstractly.


OM
 
Angel said:
The instinct in Man is augmented by the faculty for symbolism in Man, which is related to Man's perhaps unique self-consciousness.
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I like the link between self-consciousness and creativity.... I think you see that in people with autism, for instance - their heightened self-consciousness tends to result in greater creativity. But is there a correlation to symbolism? I don't quite grasp the linkage there.
 
Cordelier said:
I like the link between self-consciousness and creativity.... I think you see that in people with autism, for instance - their heightened self-consciousness tends to result in greater creativity. But is there a correlation to symbolism? I don't quite grasp the linkage there.
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Symbolism is about deferred meaning, and only Man appears to be capable of this.
 
Cordelier said:
But what's the evolutionary advantage of abstract thought? Or culture, for that matter?
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Keeps us ahead of the curve when competing for limited resources in a prolonged effort to survive. Cultural cooperation is an extension of that. Keeps us at the top of the food chain. We are still life systems caught in the universal struggle to survive. And if we have made it to old age, we have succeeded.


OM
 
Angel said:
Symbolism is about deferred meaning, and only Man appears to be capable of this.
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True... but what I'm wondering if symbolism has more to do with the cause of the creativity... or is it a side-effect?

A child has an imaginary friend that only she can see.... did she create it or is it really there?
 
Omega Man said:
Keeps us ahead of the curve when competing for limited resources in a prolonged effort to survive. Cultural cooperation is an extension of that. Keeps us at the top of the food chain. We are still life systems caught in the universal struggle to survive. And if we have made it to old age, we have succeeded.


OM
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That last thought makes me think of that line from Catch-22: "Well, he died. You don't get any older than that."

I agree with everything you're saying.... I understand the necessity for struggle and the competitive advantage that can come from abstract thought... but still, I don't think you're accounting for all of the variables. There's more to the question here. When I plug in your equation, I come up with a species that is ruthlessly pragmatic.... I don't think that's humanity. That's the mentality of the snake. I'd say we're the other way around... we're pragmatically ruthless. So my question here is what is the advantage of the latter over the former?
 
Cordelier said:
That last thought makes me think of that line from Catch-22: "Well, he died. You don't get any older than that."

I agree with everything you're saying.... I understand the necessity for struggle and the competitive advantage that can come from abstract thought... but still, I don't think you're accounting for all of the variables. There's more to the question here. When I plug in your equation, I come up with a species that is ruthlessly pragmatic.... I don't think that's humanity. That's the mentality of the snake. I'd say we're the other way around... we're pragmatically ruthless. So my question here is what is the advantage of the latter over the former?
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Well if you want to break it down to the cellular level, you could say our species exists simply to overtake and consume. But I think we're a tad more sentient than that.


OM
 
Omega Man said:
Well if you want to break it down to the cellular level, you could say our species exists simply to overtake and consume. But I think we're a tad more sentient than that.


OM
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Exactly.... but that's kind of the point of this thread. I'm trying to account for this sentience. What is it that makes Michelangelo look at a block of marble and see an Angel instead of a rock to beat someone over the head with?
 
Cordelier said:
Exactly.... but that's kind of the point of this thread. I'm trying to account for this sentience. What is it that makes Michelangelo look at a block of marble and see an Angel instead of a rock to beat someone over the head with?
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Cultural-ratcheting; culture-bearing primates who have evolved the ability to think abstractly.


OM
 
Cordelier said:
True... but what I'm wondering if symbolism has more to do with the cause of the creativity... or is it a side-effect?

A child has an imaginary friend that only she can see.... did she create it or is it really there?
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Yes, the capacity for symbolic thought is certainly a necessary and perhaps a sufficient condition for creativity in Man.
Imagination is another necessary and perhaps sufficient condition.
 
Cordelier said:
*L* That's circular logic.... there's more to the puzzle than that.
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It's only "circular", because your reply took it straight back to your original premise, thus I went back to my original reply to your original premise.


OM
 
Angel said:
Yes, the capacity for symbolic thought is certainly a necessary and perhaps a sufficient condition for creativity in Man.
Imagination is another necessary and perhaps sufficient condition.
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How can you say it's "necessary", though? Isn't the ability to think the only necessary condition? As Descartes said, "Cogito, ergo sum..."

To me, it seems symbolism is the cart... imagination is the horse... and creativity is the reins. It's great when they're all working together... but the horse goes faster without the cart. If you want to go along for the ride, you'll probably want the reins. And the cart by itself only works if you want to go downhill.
 
Omega Man said:
It's only "circular", because your reply took it straight back to your original premise, thus I went back to my original reply to your original premise.


OM
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That's why I laughed. :)

The answer is incomplete... there are still unaccounted for variables in your equation.
 
Cordelier said:
That's why I laughed. :)

The answer is incomplete... there are still unaccounted for variables in your equation.
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As a species, our sentience has evolved to a point where our individual will is never satisfied. It is instead placated through rationalistic doses of religion and ideological pursuits.


OM
 
Omega Man said:
As a species, our sentience has evolved to a point where our individual will is never satisfied. It is instead placated through rationalistic doses of religion and ideological pursuits.


OM
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At some point... roughly 4 million or so years ago, we got down out of the trees, left the Rift Valley, and spread out all over the globe. I'd say that was pretty indicative of a will that is never satisfied. The question I have is why? What sparked it? And is creativity the key to the answer somehow?
 
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