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Angels in Stone: The Nature of Creativity

Cordelier said:
Ultimate intelligence... but intelligence untempered by wisdom. Like the clip I posted from Star Trek... he's intelligent but inexperienced. Experience implies wisdom. Not just any experience, though... experience in suffering. If you're born into a reality where you want for nothing - you know all there is to know, you have all there is to have, you are immortal.... then you start at the top of existence. And when you're there, there's no room for growth. You can't improve on that, so you don't even try. Metaphorically speaking, Satan's weakness is that he's "greater" than God. It's a form of the Omnipotence Paradox.
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Why does wisdom have to be from experience in suffering?

But what is Satan a metaphor for?
 
devildavid said:
No, you have to make it clear. Otherwise, what are we talking about?
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You're talking about destinations. I'm talking about the journey. Two different propositions. Life is like a bus trip. We're all on the same journey... but we all end up at our own destination.
 
devildavid said:
Why does wisdom have to be from experience in suffering?

But what is Satan a metaphor for?
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Everybody has experiences. But not everybody gains wisdom from those experiences. It seems to me that the wisdom you gain comes from the degree to which you suffer. I may be wrong about that, I don't know... I can only speak for myself and how it seems to me.

I already answered your second question - read the post you quoted.
 
Cordelier said:
You're talking about destinations. I'm talking about the journey. Two different propositions. Life is like a bus trip. We're all on the same journey... but we all end up at our own destination.
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I was not talking about destinations. I'm not sure what you think you are talking about.
 
Cordelier said:
Everybody has experiences. But not everybody gains wisdom from those experiences. It seems to me that the wisdom you gain comes from the degree to which you suffer. I may be wrong about that, I don't know... I can only speak for myself and how it seems to me.

I already answered your second question - read the post you quoted.
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Wisdom can come from anything. I don't think that suffering is required or even leads to wisdom. The capacity for wisdom must first be there.
 
devildavid said:
I was not talking about destinations. I'm not sure what you think you are talking about.
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As far as I understand it, you're asking if God exists or if He's a metaphor... we all have to find our own answer for that in our own way. Maybe it's like Schrödinger's Cat... is it alive or is it dead? It's both.
 
Cordelier said:
As far as I understand it, you're asking if God exists or if He's a metaphor... we all have to find our own answer for that in our own way. Maybe it's like Schrödinger's Cat... is it alive or is it dead? It's both.
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I'm asking how you are treating the concept of god. We don't have to find any answer to what god is. God is not a concept we need to consider at all.
 
devildavid said:
I'm asking how you are treating the concept of god. We don't have to find any answer to what god is. God is not a concept we need to consider at all.
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If God is not a concept we need to consider at all, then why are you asking how I'm treating Him as a concept?
 
Cordelier said:
If God is not a concept we need to consider at all, then why are you asking how I'm treating Him as a concept?
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Because you keep bringing up god. What does the concept of god have to do with human creativity?
 
Cordelier said:
But where does the capacity come from? If everything is perfect for you, then any change you experience, by it's very nature, is going to make it worse, is it not?
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It comes from having a brain and learning from experience.

What is this thing about everything being perfect? What does that mean? And by the same token, if everything is not perfect, change could make things better.
 
devildavid said:
Because you keep bringing up god. What does the concept of god have to do with human creativity?
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Only because that's where the conversation shifted... if you don't want to address it from a theological standpoint, what ground are you more comfortable discussing it? Philosophical? Scientific? Name it... let's go there.
 
devildavid said:
It comes from having a brain and learning from experience.

What is this thing about everything being perfect? What does that mean? And by the same token, if everything is not perfect, change could make things better.
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The way I figure it, if you want to measure something, it's probably best to start from an idealized concept and then work out from there. It's like measuring the gravity.... we could go out and conduct real-world experiments and drop things from buildings and see how long it takes them to hit the ground. But it doesn't account for aerodynamic drag, or air pressure, or terminal velocity and probably a million and one other variables. Or we could do the experiment in a lab in a vacuum and measure how objects fall in idealized conditions that wouldn't ever exist in the real world.
 
Cordelier said:
The way I figure it, if you want to measure something, it's probably best to start from an idealized concept and then work out from there. It's like measuring the gravity.... we could go out and conduct real-world experiments and drop things from buildings and see how long it takes them to hit the ground. But it doesn't account for aerodynamic drag, or air pressure, or terminal velocity and probably a million and one other variables. Or we could do the experiment in a lab in a vacuum and measure how objects fall in idealized conditions that wouldn't ever exist in the real world.
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If you can create a condition, that condition does exist in the real world. But the word perfect is subjective. What makes something perfect? What is perfect conditions for a human being?
 
Cordelier said:
Like I was just saying to Devildavid.... do you ever notice that Satan never creates anything himself? He tries to tempt Christ to turn the stones into bread, but he doesn't do it himself and tempt him with food. He transports Christ to the Pinnacle of the Temple... but not to some custom setting he designed himself for the purpose he sought. Satan strikes me as intensely clever - a master of human psychology - but strangely deficient in that way. Is that his weakness? Like Khan in Star Trek... does his pattern indicate two dimensional thinking?

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Sorry, C. but since YouTube went all html5 I cannot view video on my computer. As for the non-video portion of your post, all I can say is Satan was a lady and Satan never sleeps, but Milton's Satan steals the show in Paradise Lost.
 
devildavid said:
Because you keep bringing up god. What does the concept of god have to do with human creativity?
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Since nobody knows what it is for certain, it could be argued that the narrowing-down of God itself to some sort of anthropomorphized Bronze Aged king sitting on a throne, is itself a product of human creativity.


OM
 
Omega Man said:
Since nobody knows what it is for certain, it could be argued that the narrowing-down of God itself to some sort of anthropomorphized Bronze Aged king sitting on a throne, is itself a product of human creativity.


OM
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We know for certain that it is a concept, a metaphor.
 
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