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Science Of The Bible

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Outdated or ahead of its time...I would say ahead of its time...

Outdated or Ahead of Its Time?
SCIENCE
THE BIBLE IS NOT A SCIENCE TEXTBOOK, YET IT CONTAINS STATEMENTS THAT WERE WAY AHEAD OF THEIR TIME. CONSIDER A FEW EXAMPLES.

Did the physical universe have a beginning?

Leading scientists once felt strongly that the answer was no. Now they generally accept that there was a beginning to the universe. The Bible said that clearly all along.​—Genesis 1:1.

What is the shape of the earth?

In ancient times, many people thought that the earth was flat. In the fifth century B.C.E., Greek scientists suggested that it was a sphere. But long before that​—in the eighth century B.C.E.​—the Bible writer Isaiah referred to “the circle of the earth,” using a word that may also be rendered “sphere.”​—Isaiah 40:22; footnote.

Are the physical heavens subject to decay?

Greek scientist Aristotle, of the fourth century B.C.E., taught that decay happens only on the earth, while the starry heavens could never change or decay. That view prevailed for many centuries. But in the 19th century, scientists formulated the concept of entropy. It suggests that all matter, whether heavenly or earthly, tends to decay. One of the scientists who helped to advance this concept, Lord Kelvin, noted that the Bible says about heaven and earth: “Just like a garment they will all wear out.” (Psalm 102:25, 26) Kelvin believed, as the Bible teaches, that God could choose to prevent such decay from destroying His creations.​—Ecclesiastes 1:4.

What holds up planets such as our earth?

Aristotle taught that all the heavenly bodies were encased in crystalline spheres, each one nested tightly within the next, with the earth innermost. By the 18th century C.E., scientists were accepting the idea that stars and planets might hang in a void. But in the book of Job, of the 15th century B.C.E., we read that the Creator is “suspending the earth upon nothing.”​—Job 26:7.

MEDICINE
THE BIBLE, THOUGH NOT A MEDICAL TEXTBOOK, CONTAINS SOME PRINCIPLES THAT REFLECT ADVANCED KNOWLEDGE OF HEALTH.

Isolating sick people.

The Mosaic Law prescribed keeping people with leprosy separate from others. Not until the plagues of the Middle Ages did medical doctors learn to apply this principle, which is still deemed effective.​—Leviticus, chapters 13 and 14.

Washing after touching a dead body.

Until late in the 19th century, physicians often worked on corpses and then on living patients​—without washing their hands in between. That practice caused many deaths. Yet, the Mosaic Law stated that anyone who touched a dead body was ceremonially unclean. It even directed that water be used for ceremonial cleansing in such cases. Those religious practices surely had health benefits as well.​—Numbers 19:11, 19.

Waste disposal.

Each year, over half a million children die of diarrhea, largely because of exposure to human waste that is not disposed of properly. The Mosaic Law said that human waste should be buried, disposed of away from human habitation.​—Deuteronomy 23:13.

Timing of circumcision.

God’s Law stipulated that a male child should be circumcised on the eighth day of life. (Leviticus 12:3) In newborn babies, the blood’s ability to clot is understood to reach normal levels after the first week. In Bible times, before advanced medical treatments were available, waiting for over a week before circumcision was a wise protection.

The link between emotional health and physical health.

Medical researchers and scientists say that positive emotions such as joy, hope, gratitude, and a willingness to forgive have some beneficial effects on health. The Bible says: “A joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit saps one’s strength.”​—Proverbs 17:22.
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Outdated or Ahead of Its Time? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
Logicman said:
Sorry, but I'm not kicking MULTIPLE, INDEPENDENT, HISTORICAL CONFIRMATIONS OF JESUS AND HIS RESURRECTION to the curb because of your penchant for doing just that.

The New Testament isn't just ONE book. It certainly wasn't one book in the first century. It's a compilation of numerous, independent manuscripts and accounts that individually were floating around different communities in the first century. That's why your "can't prove the bible by pointing out verses in the bible" trick fails.

Jesus is Lord!
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You keep on saying the word 'independent', I don't think it means what you think it means.
 
Logicman said:
Sorry, but I'm not kicking MULTIPLE, INDEPENDENT, HISTORICAL CONFIRMATIONS OF JESUS AND HIS RESURRECTION to the curb because of your penchant for doing just that.

The New Testament isn't just ONE book. It certainly wasn't one book in the first century. It's a compilation of numerous, independent manuscripts and accounts that individually were floating around different communities in the first century. That's why your "can't prove the bible by pointing out verses in the bible" trick fails.

Jesus is Lord!
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Yeah, all these multiple confirmations are all in the bible, and this somehow proves they are all true since these books in the bible say the same thing. And if I remember correctly, these "independent" confirmations were from church leaders who knew each other. UFO abductions have thousands of multiple independent confirmations, that are really independent. We are just going to rule out the possibility that they all got together to get their story straight, or they copied off of earlier books, or these books aren't actually written by who they claim to be written by. You basically assume honesty in the writers to prove that their accounts are true. Genius!
 
distraff said:
Yeah, all these multiple confirmations are all in the bible, and this somehow proves they are all true since these books in the bible say the same thing. And if I remember correctly, these "independent" confirmations were from church leaders who knew each other. UFO abductions have thousands of multiple independent confirmations, that are really independent. We are just going to rule out the possibility that they all got together to get their story straight, or they copied off of earlier books, or these books aren't actually written by who they claim to be written by. You basically assume honesty in the writers to prove that their accounts are true. Genius!
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You basically assume dishonesty or collusion or ignorance from the Gospel authors. Genius!

By the skeptic's common practice of discarding or attempting to marginalize ALL historical references to Jesus, they unwittingly would have people believe in a massive and complicated conspiracy by mostly common, uneducated fishermen, etc., to advance a false narrative about Christ.

Let's review who would probably have to be in this unwitting conspiracy of theirs and be labeled as liars, charlatans, etc.

1. Most or all of the disciples, including early unbelievers such as James and Thomas. Skeptics would, in effect, be assigning acts of deception to these men in spite of there being no narrative or history of dishonesty on their part.

2. The women at the tomb. First-century testimony of any kind that a resurrection never occurred is absent in history.

3. Luke, the physician and author of his Gospel. He wasn't a disciple. He wrote that he carefully investigated "everything" from the beginning. There's no evidence he just focused on the words and accounts of the apostles alone. What's more, he continues his narrative with the Book of Acts, with additional miracles and people (including Paul, a person initially hostile to Christianity) claiming to have had experiences with Christ. Plus, Paul's companions on the road to Damascus "heard the sound" of Paul's experience with Jesus. So Luke would have to be a liar, fool, or charlatan also.

4. Eusebius and Josephus and others who wrote about Jesus had to be lying, mistaken, or also in on the conspiracy to defraud the populace.

5. We need to add Paul to the conspiracy, since he wrote of the resurrection of Jesus in his epistles, and since he wrote most of the New Testament. According to Luke, Paul had an experience with Jesus on the road to Damascus.

6. Let's also add in all the other eyewitnesses of miracles and/or authors of the New Testament, since they must also be liars, madmen, or charlatans.

I can probably dredge up some more, but the list of people who would have to be liars, charlatans, etc., is now too long (and unsupported by any credible evidence on the part of skeptics) to be believable. But you're the one who is right. Uh huh, LOL!
 
Logicman said:
You basically assume dishonesty or collusion or ignorance from the Gospel authors. Genius!

By the skeptic's common practice of discarding or attempting to marginalize ALL historical references to Jesus, they unwittingly would have people believe in a massive and complicated conspiracy by mostly common, uneducated fishermen, etc., to advance a false narrative about Christ.

Let's review who would probably have to be in this unwitting conspiracy of theirs and be labeled as liars, charlatans, etc.

1. Most or all of the disciples, including early unbelievers such as James and Thomas. Skeptics would, in effect, be assigning acts of deception to these men in spite of there being no narrative or history of dishonesty on their part.

2. The women at the tomb. First-century testimony of any kind that a resurrection never occurred is absent in history.

3. Luke, the physician and author of his Gospel. He wasn't a disciple. He wrote that he carefully investigated "everything" from the beginning. There's no evidence he just focused on the words and accounts of the apostles alone. What's more, he continues his narrative with the Book of Acts, with additional miracles and people (including Paul, a person initially hostile to Christianity) claiming to have had experiences with Christ. Plus, Paul's companions on the road to Damascus "heard the sound" of Paul's experience with Jesus. So Luke would have to be a liar, fool, or charlatan also.

4. Eusebius and Josephus and others who wrote about Jesus had to be lying, mistaken, or also in on the conspiracy to defraud the populace.

5. We need to add Paul to the conspiracy, since he wrote of the resurrection of Jesus in his epistles, and since he wrote most of the New Testament. According to Luke, Paul had an experience with Jesus on the road to Damascus.

6. Let's also add in all the other eyewitnesses of miracles and/or authors of the New Testament, since they must also be liars, madmen, or charlatans.

I can probably dredge up some more, but the list of people who would have to be liars, charlatans, etc., is now too long (and unsupported by any credible evidence on the part of skeptics) to be believable. But you're the one who is right. Uh huh, LOL!
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The Mormon church, Buddhists, scientology, cults, UFO experiencers, psychics, and bigfoot witnesses are also chalk full of people claiming supernatural events. The list of people claiming supernatural experiences is just crazy long and if we just assumed honesty on their part, we would end up believing all sorts of crazy stuff. So unfortunately, there is no way to prove the gospels true based on only the testimony of church leaders in Jesus's inner circle. We cannot assume honestly of any kind.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I claimed I saw a cat in my back yard, you are probably going to believe me. And it is reasonable to basically assume honesty on my part for such a small claim. But if I claimed to see a UFO, then you are going to need evidence. Even if my friends and I wrote our individual accounts, and even if we have pictures, that still isn't enough, because we can all be lying or forging the picture. There is a much higher bar of evidence and a much higher need to prove honesty for extraordinary claims.

You cannot assume that any of the characters who were mentioned in the gospels or other writings were real people, and need to provide evidence that the gospels were written by who they claimed to be written by. Many of these church leaders you mentioned didn't directly observe the resurrection and only got them from second-hand accounts. You can't assume they investigated well and are unbiased and honest. You can't assume that the people who claimed the resurrection were honest. You can't assume Paul's claim of a vision wasn't a lie or medically inducted or the accounts of his fellow travelers made up.

Another problem is that these people are supposedly relaying the commandments of an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-benevolent God. But the philosophy we see in the new testament doesn't make sense and the commandments are often very backwards and don't make logical sense. For example the whole idea of eternal hell for commit even a single sin, and somehow having faith in Jesus wipes the slate. There are just so many logical errors with this, I could go on a while about it. In addition their rules on divorce, sexism, divine right of kings, homophobia, and many more just don't make logical sense at all. The Old Testament that they base their religion has even more problems and horrifying teachings and commandments that don't make logical sense. I strongly doubt that these people had any connection to a perfect God and am inclined to doubt their honesty because these commandments are utterly ridiculous.
 
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distraff said:
The Mormon church, Buddhists, scientology, cults, UFO experiencers, psychics, and bigfoot witnesses are also chalk full of people claiming supernatural events. The list of people claiming supernatural experiences is just crazy long and if we just assumed honesty on their part, we would end up believing all sorts of crazy stuff. So unfortunately, there is no way to prove the gospels true based on only the testimony of church leaders in Jesus's inner circle. We cannot assume honestly of any kind.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I claimed I saw a cat in my back yard, you are probably going to believe me. And it is reasonable to basically assume honesty on my part for such a small claim. But if I claimed to see a UFO, then you are going to need evidence. Even if my friends and I wrote our individual accounts, and even if we have pictures, that still isn't enough, because we can all be lying or forging the picture. There is a much higher bar of evidence and a much higher need to prove honesty for extraordinary claims.

You cannot assume that any of the characters who were mentioned in the gospels or other writings were real people, and need to provide evidence that the gospels were written by who they claimed to be written by. Many of these church leaders you mentioned didn't directly observe the resurrection and only got them from second-hand accounts. You can't assume they investigated well and are unbiased and honest. You can't assume that the people who claimed the resurrection were honest. You can't assume Paul's claim of a vision wasn't a lie or medically inducted or the accounts of his fellow travelers made up.

Another problem is that these people are supposedly relaying the commandments of an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-benevolent God. But the philosophy we see in the new testament doesn't make sense and the commandments are often very backwards and don't make logical sense. For example the whole idea of eternal hell for commit even a single sin, and somehow having faith in Jesus wipes the slate. There are just so many logical errors with this, I could go on a while about it. In addition their rules on divorce, sexism, divine right of kings, homophobia, and many more just don't make logical sense at all. The Old Testament that they base their religion has even more problems and horrifying teachings and commandments that don't make logical sense. I strongly doubt that these people had any connection to a perfect God and am inclined to doubt their honesty because these commandments are utterly ridiculous.
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You haven't done your homework on the Gospels. Superficial arguments like you make above are evidence of that.

Here's some recommended books to read to help clear up your confusion:

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;
"New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell;
"Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," by Dr. Norman Geisler;
"The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and
"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr, Gary Habermas.
 
Logicman said:
You haven't done your homework on the Gospels. Superficial arguments like you make above are evidence of that.

Here's some recommended books to read to help clear up your confusion:

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;
"New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell;
"Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," by Dr. Norman Geisler;
"The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and
"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr, Gary Habermas.
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I am kind of disappointed that you don't want to address my refutations. I have seen this pattern from people of faith a lot. They don't really understand how evidence works especially when talking about their religious beliefs. One thing I have seen from you is that you set the standard of evidence for your beliefs so low that you will just trust that the writers of the new testament are telling the truth and will try to prove they are right by quoting claims they have made. I was raised in the Mormon church and they did exactly the same thing, with a lot of so-called miracle claims from early church leaders. They even got a bunch of leaders to all sign a document that an angel came down and shows them the Book of Mormon on the gold plates. To them, this is evidence, and I just have to shake my head. Its easy to just trust people and believe psychics or UFO claims they are making, but if we did that, we would end up believing all sorts of nonsense. My step-dad was that way.
 
distraff said:
I am kind of disappointed that you don't want to address my refutations. I have seen this pattern from people of faith a lot. They don't really understand how evidence works especially when talking about their religious beliefs. One thing I have seen from you is that you set the standard of evidence for your beliefs so low that you will just trust that the writers of the new testament are telling the truth and will try to prove they are right by quoting claims they have made. I was raised in the Mormon church and they did exactly the same thing, with a lot of so-called miracle claims from early church leaders. They even got a bunch of leaders to all sign a document that an angel came down and shows them the Book of Mormon on the gold plates. To them, this is evidence, and I just have to shake my head. Its easy to just trust people and believe psychics or UFO claims they are making, but if we did that, we would end up believing all sorts of nonsense. My step-dad was that way.
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Listen, I have 40+ years of study into the Bible and especially the New Testament, and I've yet to see any of you skeptics make even the smallest dent into the rock-solid resurrection of Jesus Christ. You certainly haven't presented anything compelling. You don't believe the Gospel authors, fine, but you have yet to present a single piece of evidence that they are either liars, charlatans, or fools. You aren't even well read on the historical evidences for Jesus Christ. My standard for the resurrection is as high as it can be. If you have something specific then trot it out and let's see it. You'd better do your homework on it, though, because it will be an embarrassment to you if and when it gets shot down.

So enough of your generalizations. Show me where any person, place, or event in the Gospels has been shown to be fictitious. Should be a piece of cake, right? So where's the beef?
 
Logicman said:
Listen, I have 40+ years of study into the Bible and especially the New Testament, and I've yet to see any of you skeptics make even the smallest dent into the rock-solid resurrection of Jesus Christ. You certainly haven't presented anything compelling. You don't believe the Gospel authors, fine, but you have yet to present a single piece of evidence that they are either liars, charlatans, or fools. You aren't even well read on the historical evidences for Jesus Christ. My standard for the resurrection is as high as it can be. If you have something specific then trot it out and let's see it. You'd better do your homework on it, though, because it will be an embarrassment to you if and when it gets shot down.

So enough of your generalizations. Show me where any person, place, or event in the Gospels has been shown to be fictitious. Should be a piece of cake, right? So where's the beef?
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There are people out there with 40 years of experience studying big foot, and the loch ness monster. Both of those, as you know , are fictitious. Let's see you prove it.
 
Logicman said:
Listen, I have 40+ years of study into the Bible and especially the New Testament,
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I mean with the upmost sincerity and sympathy, this is really a shame.

For someone to do such a thing tells me much about your life and I genuinely feel for you.
 
Logicman said:
Sorry, but I'm not kicking MULTIPLE, INDEPENDENT, HISTORICAL CONFIRMATIONS OF JESUS AND HIS RESURRECTION to the curb because of your penchant for doing just that.

The New Testament isn't just ONE book. It certainly wasn't one book in the first century. It's a compilation of numerous, independent manuscripts and accounts that individually were floating around different communities in the first century. That's why your "can't prove the bible by pointing out verses in the bible" trick fails.

Jesus is Lord!
Click to expand...

For pity's sake! No Christian source will do an an independent source.

There are lots of other sources about and all of them draw a blank when you look for any evidence that there was any sort of big fuss about some bloke who could walk on water and wanted to be King of the Jews etc.
 
distraff said:
The Mormon church, Buddhists, scientology, cults, UFO experiencers, psychics, and bigfoot witnesses are also chalk full of people claiming supernatural events. The list of people claiming supernatural experiences is just crazy long and if we just assumed honesty on their part, we would end up believing all sorts of crazy stuff. So unfortunately, there is no way to prove the gospels true based on only the testimony of church leaders in Jesus's inner circle. We cannot assume honestly of any kind.
.
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and, any "supernatural" event that has really occurred is only supernatural because science cannot explain it YET. It is not supernatural at all.
 
Elvira said:
Well, one thing's for sure...those who disbelieve the Bible, it is not because science has disproved the Bible...modern science has not disproved the Bible, not one line of it...in the face of such evidence, honesthearted persons will be convinced, but the skeptic never will be, since he wants to cling to the error that suits his purpose...

“That is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12
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Science has utterly disproved the 6 days of creation myth.

How do you lie so freely?
 
Tim the plumber said:
Science has utterly disproved the 6 days of creation myth.

How do you lie so freely?
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Says the person who hasn't an inkling of understanding God's Word...

How Long Were the Creative Days?
What about the length of the creative days? Were they literally 24 hours long? Some claim that because Moses​—the writer of Genesis—​later referred to the day that followed the six creative days as a model for the weekly Sabbath, each of the creative days must be literally 24 hours long. (Exodus 20:11) Does the wording of Genesis support this conclusion?

No, it does not. The fact is that the Hebrew word translated “day” can mean various lengths of time, not just a 24-hour period. For example, when summarizing God’s creative work, Moses refers to all six creative days as one day. (Genesis 2:4) In addition, on the first creative day, “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.” (Genesis 1:5) Here, only a portion of a 24-hour period is defined by the term “day.” Certainly, there is no basis in Scripture for arbitrarily stating that each creative day was 24 hours long.

How long, then, were the creative days? The Bible does not say; however, the wording of Genesis chapters 1 and 2 indicates that considerable lengths of time were involved.

Six Creative Periods
Moses wrote his account in Hebrew, and he wrote it from the perspective of a person standing on the surface of the earth. These two facts combined with the knowledge that the universe existed before the beginning of the creative periods, or days, help to defuse much of the controversy surrounding the creation account. How so?

A careful consideration of the Genesis account reveals that events starting during one “day” continued into one or more of the following “days.” For example, before the first creative “day” started, light from the already existing sun was somehow prevented from reaching the earth’s surface, possibly by thick clouds. (Job 38:9) During the first “day,” this barrier began to clear, allowing diffused light to penetrate the atmosphere.

In the description of what happened on the first “day,” the Hebrew word used for light is ’ohr, light in a general sense, but concerning the fourth “day,” the word used is ma·’ohrʹ, which refers to the source of light.

On the second “day,” the atmosphere evidently continued to clear, creating a space between the thick clouds above and the ocean below. On the fourth “day,” the atmosphere gradually cleared to such an extent that the sun and the moon were made to appear “in the expanse of the heavens.” (Genesis 1:14-16) In other words, from the perspective of a person on earth, the sun and moon began to be discernible. These events happened gradually.

The Genesis account also relates that as the atmosphere continued to clear, flying creatures​—including insects and membrane-winged creatures—​started to appear on the fifth “day.”

The Bible’s narrative allows for the possibility that some major events during each day, or creative period, occurred gradually rather than instantly, perhaps some of them even lasting into the following creative days.

For example, during the sixth creative day, God decreed that humans “become many and fill the earth.” (Genesis 1:28, 31) Yet, this event did not even begin to occur until the following “day.”​—Genesis 2:2.
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Science and the Genesis Account — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
Elvira said:
Says the person who hasn't an inkling of understanding God's Word...



Science and the Genesis Account — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
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Again, for pity's sake, this has been explained to you before.

Lots of plants cannot survive without the animals they are utterly linked with. They could not be around for millions of years without their attendant insect or whatever animals. Figs and fruit flies need each other. The Fig tree needs the fruit flies living within it's figs to spread it's pollen. If there are none then it's fruit cannot ripen. They needed to get into that fruit at the right time. There needed to be a fig tree releasing it's fruit flies reasonably near at about the right time.

These intimate relationships are very very common in nature.

If you are saying that the story is not 100% accurate but sort of a guide to the process you are just as wrong. It is drivel. Plain and simple.
 
noonereal said:
I mean with the upmost sincerity and sympathy, this is really a shame.

For someone to do such a thing tells me much about your life and I genuinely feel for you.
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Feel sorry for those who have been conned that the story of Christ is not real.

John 3:36
 
Tim the plumber said:
For pity's sake! No Christian source will do an an independent source.

There are lots of other sources about and all of them draw a blank when you look for any evidence that there was any sort of big fuss about some bloke who could walk on water and wanted to be King of the Jews etc.
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I don't believe you. You've been conned about Jesus, etc.
 
Logicman said:
Feel sorry for those who have been conned that the story of Christ is not real.

John 3:36
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Ah yes, John the Baptizer. His characterization in the Gospel of John was quite different than the one portrayed in the Gospel of Mark. All literary elements aside, I wonder who the real John the Baptizer was?


OM
 
Omega Man said:
Ah yes, John the Baptizer. His characterization in the Gospel of John was quite different than the one portrayed in the Gospel of Mark. All literary elements aside, I wonder who the real John the Baptizer was?


OM
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A lifeguard?
 
Omega Man said:
Ah yes, John the Baptizer. His characterization in the Gospel of John was quite different than the one portrayed in the Gospel of Mark. All literary elements aside, I wonder who the real John the Baptizer was?
OM
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Please demonstrate how they are different.
 
Omega Man said:
Ah yes, John the Baptizer. His characterization in the Gospel of John was quite different than the one portrayed in the Gospel of Mark. All literary elements aside, I wonder who the real John the Baptizer was?


OM
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I don't know about John the Baptist per say, but there was an actual movement that baptized people in the river Jordan outside of the temple. The temple didn't like that much.
 
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