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Religion vs real world sexuality

Tim the plumber

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The link will not allow me to read that article until I first pay them $1 for a weeks access. :(


OM

It lets me in without.

I can't manage to get it other wise...


MILWAUKEE — Gregory Greiten was 17 years old when the priests organized the game. It was 1982 and he was on a retreat with his classmates from St. Lawrence, a Roman Catholic seminary for teenage boys training to become priests. Leaders asked each boy to rank which he would rather be: burned over 90 percent of his body, paraplegic or gay.

Each chose to be scorched or paralyzed. Not one uttered the word “gay.” They called the game the Game of Life.

The lesson stuck. Seven years later, he climbed up into his seminary dorm window and dangled one leg over the edge. “I really am gay,” Father Greiten, now a priest near Milwaukee, remembered telling himself for the first time. “It was like a death sentence.”

The closet of the Roman Catholic Church hinges on an impossible contradiction. For years, church leaders have driven gay congregants away in shame and insisted that “homosexual tendencies” are “disordered.” And yet, thousands of the church’s priests are gay.

The stories of gay priests are unspoken, veiled from the outside world, known only to one another, if they are known at all.

Fewer than about 10 priests in the United States have dared to come out publicly. But gay men probably make up at least 30 to 40 percent of the American Catholic clergy, according to dozens of estimates from gay priests themselves and researchers. Some priests say the number is closer to 75 percent. One priest in Wisconsin said he assumed every priest was gay unless he knows for a fact he is not. A priest in Florida put it this way: “A third are gay, a third are straight and a third don’t know what the hell they are.”

Two dozen gay priests and seminarians from 13 states shared intimate details of their lives in the Catholic closet with The New York Times over the past two months. They were interviewed in their churches before Mass, from art museums on the weekend, in their apartments decorated with rainbow neon lights and between classes at seminary. Some agreed to be photographed if their identities were concealed.

Almost all of them required strict confidentiality to speak without fear of retribution from their bishops or superiors. A few had been expressly forbidden to come out or even to speak about homosexuality. Most are in active ministry, and could lose more than their jobs if they are outed. The church almost always controls a priest’s housing, health insurance and retirement pension. He could lose all three if his bishop finds his sexuality disqualifying, even if he is faithful to his vows of celibacy.

The environment for gay priests has grown only more dangerous. The fall of Theodore E. McCarrick, the once-powerful cardinal who was defrocked last week for sexual abuse of boys and young men, has inflamed accusations that homosexuality is to blame for the church’s resurgent abuse crisis.
 
And there's more..

Studies repeatedly find there to be no connection between being gay and abusing children. And yet prominent bishops have singled out gay priests as the root of the problem, and right-wing media organizations attack what they have called the church’s “homosexual subculture,” “lavender mafia,” or “gay cabal.”

Even Pope Francis has grown more critical in recent months. He has called homosexuality “fashionable,” recommended that men with “this deep-seated tendency” not be accepted for ministry and admonished gay priests to be “perfectly responsible, trying to never create scandal.”

This week, Pope Francis will host a much-anticipated summit on sex abuse with bishops from around the world. The debate promises to be not only about holding bishops accountable but also about homosexuality itself.

“This is my life,” a parish priest in the Northeast said. “You feel like everyone is on a witch hunt now for things you have never done.”

Just a few years ago, this shift was almost unimaginable. When Pope Francis uttered his revolutionary question, “Who am I to judge?” in 2013, he tempted the closet door to swing open. A cautious few priests stepped through.

But if the closet door cracked, the sex abuse crisis now threatens to slam it shut. Widespread scapegoating has driven many priests deeper into the closet.

“The vast majority of gay priests are not safe,” said Father Bob Bussen, a priest in Park City, Utah, who was outed about 12 years ago after he held Mass for the L.G.B.T.Q. community.

“Life in the closet is worse than scapegoating,” he said. “It is not a closet. It is a cage.”
“You can be taught to act straight in order to survive.”

Even before a priest may know he is gay, he knows the closet. The code is taught early, often in seminary. Numquam duo, semper tres, the warning goes. Never two, always three. Move in trios, never as a couple. No going on walks alone together, no going to the movies in a pair. The higher-ups warned for years: Any male friendship is too dangerous, could slide into something sexual or could turn into what they called a “particular friendship.”

“You couldn’t have a particular friendship with a man, because you might end up being homosexual,” explained a priest, who once nicknamed his friends “the P.F.s.” “And you couldn’t have a friendship with a woman, because you might end up falling in love, and they were both against celibacy. With whom do you have a relationship that would be a healthy human relationship?”

Today, training for the priesthood in the United States usually starts in or after college. But until about 1980, the church often recruited boys to start in ninth grade — teenagers still in the throes of puberty. For many of today’s priests and bishops over 50, this environment limited healthy sexual development. Priests cannot marry, so sexuality from the start was about abstinence, and obedience.

The sexual revolution happening outside seminary walls might as well have happened on the moon, and national milestones in the fight for gay rights, like the Stonewall riots, on Mars.

One priest in a rural diocese said the rules reminded him of how his elementary school forced left-handed students to write with their right hand. “You can be taught to act straight in order to survive,” he said.

“I can still remember seeing a seminarian come out of another’s room at 5 a.m. and thinking, isn’t it nice, they talked all night,” the same priest said. “I was so naïve.”

Priests in America tend to come out to themselves at a much later age than the national average for gay men, 15. Many gay priests spoke of being pulled between denial and confusion, finally coming out to themselves in their 30s or 40s.

Father Greiten was 24 when he realized he was gay and considered jumping from his dorm window. He did not jump, but confided his despair in a classmate. His friend came out himself. It was a revelation: There were other people studying to be priests who were gay. It was just that no one talked about it.

He reached out to a former seminary professor who he thought might also be a gay man.

“There will be a time in your life when you will look back on this and you’re going to just love yourself for being gay,” Father Greiten remembered this man telling him. “I thought, ‘This man must be totally insane.’”

But he had discovered the strange irony of the Catholic closet — it isn’t secret at all.

“It’s kind of like an open closet,” Father Greiten said. “It’s the making of it public, and speaking about it, where it becomes an issue.”

One priest, whose parish has no idea he is gay, remembered a backyard cocktail party a few years ago where fellow priests were saying “vile” things about a gay bishop. He intervened, and came out to them. He lost three friends that night. “I broke the code by announcing to them that I was gay,” he said. “It was a conspiracy of silence.”
 
The link will not allow me to read that article until I first pay them $1 for a weeks access. :(


OM

Open a link is a private window
 
Open a link is a private window

Nah, it's not that. I'm a newshound, so apparently I've freely accessed more of the NYT's content this month then they care for.


OM
 
Nah, it's not that. I'm a newshound, so apparently I've freely accessed more of the NYT's content this month then they care for.


OM

They keep track of that with cookies on your machine.If you open a private window, they won't see any cookies for the site.
 
They keep track of that with cookies on your machine.If you open a private window, they won't see any cookies for the site.

Thanks for the tip!


OM
 
Oh boohoo. No one is forcing them to stay in a religion that they secretly detest. These priests should do us all a favor, be honest with themselves and with everyone else, and get the hell out of the Church!

OR how about this...true followers get the hell outta a farce of a church?

“Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.”​Revelation 18:4
 
I'd like to ask Theists on here.

Do you believe that Homosexuals/Lesbians/Bisexuals are making a conscious decision to choose to be attracted to a certain gender...or do you accept their sexual orientation is in the gene-code ?

ie: they were born that way.
 
OR how about this...true followers get the hell outta a farce of a church?

“Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.”​Revelation 18:4

That was a cryptically-veiled reference to pagan Rome, not the Catholic Church.


OM
 
Oh boohoo. No one is forcing them to stay in a religion that they secretly detest. These priests should do us all a favor, be honest with themselves and with everyone else, and get the hell out of the Church!

If all the gay priests got out, the Catholic Church would have a major shortage of them.
 
A shortage of gay priests? Good.

Sorry, I should have said a shortage of priests. You have probably availed yourself the religious services of gay priests without knowing it. Does that alter your religious experience at all?

The insistence of celibacy is probably one of the root causes of there being so many gay priests. It is an impediment to recruiting heterosexual men who might otherwise become priests except that they have a normal "god" given sex drive.
 
I'd like to ask Theists on here.

Do you believe that Homosexuals/Lesbians/Bisexuals are making a conscious decision to choose to be attracted to a certain gender...or do you accept their sexual orientation is in the gene-code ?

ie: they were born that way.




I guess it's too tough a question for the Theists.
 
I guess it's too tough a question for the Theists.

No more than it is a conscious decision to be attracted to the opposite sex...what is a conscious decision is to act on that attraction, much the same way it is man's or woman's conscious decision to cheat on his or her spouse......
 
No more than it is a conscious decision to be attracted to the opposite sex...what is a conscious decision is to act on that attraction, much the same way it is man's or woman's conscious decision to cheat on his or her spouse......

The decision to satisfy sexual urges is very powerful. It is the driving force in nature for all species of life and the key to survival of the species. It is not as conscious a decision as you think.
 
The decision to satisfy sexual urges is very powerful. It is the driving force in nature for all species of life and the key to survival of the species. It is not as conscious a decision as you think.

But it is something that can be controlled...by having the foresight and discernment to avoid putting yourself into tempting/vicarious situations...some go looking for trouble...they always find it...

“Everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”​ Matthew 5:28

“Whoever practices sexual immorality is sinning against his own body.”​ 1 Corinthians 6:18

“I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.”​ 1 Corinthians 9:27

“Whatever a person is sowing, this he will also reap; because the one sowing with a view to his flesh will reap corruption from his flesh, but the one sowing with a view to the spirit will reap everlasting life from the spirit.”​ Galatians 6:7, 8

“Deaden, therefore, your body members that are on the earth as respects sexual immorality, uncleanness, uncontrolled sexual passion.”​ Colossians 3:5

“Each one of you should know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not with greedy, uncontrolled sexual passion.”​ 1 Thessalonians 4:4, 5
 
Oh boohoo. No one is forcing them to stay in a religion that they secretly detest. These priests should do us all a favor, be honest with themselves and with everyone else, and get the hell out of the Church!

Oh boohoo. No one is forcing them to stay in a religion that they secretly detest. These priests should do us all a favor, be honest with themselves and with everyone else, and get the hell out of the Church!

Here’s the the thing. Jesus didn’t create religion man did. God and Jesus detest all sin equally. Even the thought of committing a sin is a sin. They knew that no one could be found righteous under the law (the rules and regulation given to the Israelites through Moses) So Jesus came to earth to give us grace (the full forgiveness of all sin through the death of christ) in place of law. I can’t argue that being homosexual or even transgender like myself isn’t a sin. They both are according to the Bible. But they are unavoidable sin. But when we die we want be judged on are sins. I know most Christians believe we will and all religions teach we will but we most certainly won’t be judged by our sins.
John 4:18
18 (there is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

Fear of what, punishment for what, fear of sin and punishment for sin. We all sin none is perfect. All sins are equal in gods eyes and if we where to be judged by our sins no one could find salvation. So why do we place rules on one another, why do we let others place rules on us.
 
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