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[W:220,1256]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Logicman said:
<facepalm>

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..." - Paul, Colossians 2:9
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*facepalm* *sigh*...already explained...I'll do it again, just for you...I don't repeat myself for just anyone...:2razz:

Colossians 2:9:

KJ reads: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·oʹte·tos] bodily.” (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: “It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (AT, We, and CKW read “God’s nature,” instead of “Godhead.” Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)

Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is “the fullness” that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it “pleased the Father” for this to be the case. NE says it was “by God’s own choice.”

Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and are urged to “live in him” and to be “rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious “fulness” dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the “fulness” that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be “seated at the right hand of God.”—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.

According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·oʹtes (the nominative form, from which the·oʹte·tos is derived) means “divinity, divine nature.” (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly “divinity,” or of “divine nature,” does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share “humanity” or “human nature” makes them coequal or all the same age.
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Trinity — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
Logicman said:
Are they playing the phone game while they're dead or alive?
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They would need to be alive and have some means of hearing what the other person said, then have the ability to rebut it to the same audience.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
They would need to be alive and have some means of hearing what the other person said, then have the ability to rebut it to the same audience.
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Exactly. And, as in the game of telephone, there is always the original message (Gospel message) that some people distort, and then a Christian corrects the contorted message and reestablishes the original message.

There's always Christians on the Walls watching, and setting the original message straight.
 
jmotivator said:
I see you have decided you can't actually argue the point now and have resorted to hand waving...
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Handwaving what?

while your puerile argument is "No you don't believe that!"
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Nope. My argument is that your views dont make sense.

Jesus' statement was intoning Psalm 22 which is a Psalm on the nature of human suffering and the greatness of God. The human vessel of Jesus was the sacrifice for human sin.
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Thats crazy. If Jesus and god are one as you say, then why is he referring to god as a separate being?

You are not God, God's word is not you.
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Your analogy is a total fail.

Nope. I posted the context for you and everything.
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What context? He names three beings. That makes it polytheism. He doesnt mention they are all one.

Nope. "Father and Son are one" is not as hard to read as you seem to find it.
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He's wrong about that since two beings cannot be one.

Genesis and Isaiah only came about in 500 AD? Do tell.
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No the NT did. Thats what we're talking about.

Satan's prominent appearance in the New Testament is in the Temptation of Christ... and in the Old Testament as the Tempter of Eve.
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Christian shoehorning.

Pointing out to you that your argument for the separation of Zeus and his children is not the same at the Christian argument for the trinity.
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Duh. We know that- so it doesnt support the concept of trinitarianism. In fact nothing does- I have no diea why you even brought Zeus up in the first place since its a nonsequiter.

jmotivator said:
View attachment 67250652

The only region where it is currently shrinking is Europe.
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LOL 2010-2050? Thats a projection, not actual numbers.
 
Elvira said:
That is exactly what God's Word tells us to do...

"These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:13

Jesus warned Christians in Colossae against being ensnared by “the philosophy...philosophias, literally, love of wisdom...and empty deception according to the tradition of men.”​ Colossians 2:8
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Sounds like pretty good advice.

Viewing anything from only one point of view robs us of the full value available.
 
code1211 said:
Sounds like pretty good advice.

Viewing anything from only one point of view robs us of the full value available.
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Unless we view it from God's POV...then it can make us wise as well as save our lives...
 
RAMOSS said:
A raw link to a place that puts out a list of quotes that are out of context from an insane right wing blogger. Marvelous.
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It's awesome compared to your left-wing pagan revisionism.
 
Elvira said:
Unless we view it from God's POV...then it can make us wise as well as save our lives...
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Do you claim to know the point of view of God?
 
Logicman said:
It's awesome compared to your left-wing pagan revisionism.
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Yet, context is not shown. It's basically taking sound bits that aren't related, and weaving them into a preconceived notion.
 
code1211 said:
Do you claim to know the point of view of God?
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Do you think it's impossible? The Bible says not, if we earnestly seek Him...if we are humble and modest...if we are willing to admit that we do not have all the answers...that our opinions are not always right, and that we need to know Jehovah’s mind on matters...if we are willing to put forth the effort to dig for it, it is attainable...Proverbs 2...

"1 My son, if you accept my sayings
And treasure up my commandments,

2 By making your ear attentive to wisdom
And inclining your heart to discernment;

3 Moreover, if you call out for understanding
And raise your voice for discernment;

4 If you keep seeking for it as for silver,
And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures;

5 Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah,
And you will find the knowledge of God."
 
RAMOSS said:
The Christian concept of original sin is one of the issues I have with the religion from a philosophical point of view. So many Christian denominations have the 'you are worthless' as a premise , and then 'you can get value by following our beliefs' as a carrot stick approach that I just don't like.
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Worthless? No. Christians believe God gave us the entire world, our lives, and died for our sins so that we could live with him forever. That doesn't suggest worthlessness - quite the opposite.

Undeserving...yes. I think the clue is in the Father aspect of God. Babies "deserve" nothing - they've done nothing to deserve anything, they make too much noise and mainly poop and eat. Yet to their parents they are of infinite worth, to the point that most parents would agree they would die for their children.

Christians are merely honest about our inability to be perfect, in contrast to God's inherent perfection.
 
code1211 said:
Do you claim to know the point of view of God?
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Only the most arrogant would assume so:

1 Corinthians 13:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

The first way to know you should ignore someone's religious opinions is if they claim to fully understand the mind of God.
 
Logicman said:
Listen, you can't even defend any objective basis and truths about your own reform religion, and then you try to screw up Christianity? Give it a rest. It's not working for you.
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Christianity does not work for me. It's using the typical 'make you feel bad, and then try to sell you something to make you feel good' approach. That's 'con man 101'.
 
OlNate said:
Worthless? No. Christians believe God gave us the entire world, our lives, and died for our sins so that we could live with him forever. That doesn't suggest worthlessness - quite the opposite.

Undeserving...yes. I think the clue is in the Father aspect of God. Babies "deserve" nothing - they've done nothing to deserve anything, they make too much noise and mainly poop and eat. Yet to their parents they are of infinite worth, to the point that most parents would agree they would die for their children.

Christians are merely honest about our inability to be perfect, in contrast to God's inherent perfection.
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The baby analogy doesn't really work. Babies can't do anything on their own, not that they won't do anything. It's kind of hard to be deserving of anything in your view if you are helpless to do anything about it.

As to perfection, what does it mean? It's easy for us to conceive of god as being perfect by definition, but what does that mean? That everything we attribute to god is perfect because we define god as perfect? But if we do the same thing it is imperfect because we did it?

God did not die for us. God, by definition, can't die. There is the story of a human being that died that some claim is god incarnate. Yet this human being was supposedly also part of a god that has always existed. And this death took part in a certain time in human history, many years after many human beings had already lived and died. So this alleged god could not have died for any human being who had died before him. Why did god wait so long for this human sacrifice of itself, if this is such a key to our living with him forever?
 
RAMOSS said:
Christianity does not work for me. It's using the typical 'make you feel bad, and then try to sell you something to make you feel good' approach. That's 'con man 101'.
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The con man is Satan, and he's got you stymied.
 
RAMOSS said:
That is exactly what someone who is conned would say.
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When you can bust the resurrection then you'll begin to gain some credibility with that drivel. But so far you've stuck out time and time again.
 
Logicman said:
When you can bust the resurrection then you'll begin to gain some credibility with that drivel. But so far you've stuck out time and time again.
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When you can actually proivide any evidence that the resurrection isn't merely a story from religious fanatics, then we can discuss it. Until then, that which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Story book stories are not evidence.
 
Elvira said:
Do you think it's impossible? The Bible says not, if we earnestly seek Him...if we are humble and modest...if we are willing to admit that we do not have all the answers...that our opinions are not always right, and that we need to know Jehovah’s mind on matters...if we are willing to put forth the effort to dig for it, it is attainable...Proverbs 2...

"1 My son, if you accept my sayings
And treasure up my commandments,

2 By making your ear attentive to wisdom
And inclining your heart to discernment;

3 Moreover, if you call out for understanding
And raise your voice for discernment;

4 If you keep seeking for it as for silver,
And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures;

5 Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah,
And you will find the knowledge of God."
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Well, then, you must be very happy.
 
OlNate said:
Only the most arrogant would assume so:

1 Corinthians 13:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

The first way to know you should ignore someone's religious opinions is if they claim to fully understand the mind of God.
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So true.

It seems that for me, the less I have known in my life, the greater was my certainty in my own knowledge. In aging, I find that I seem to be certain of less and less.

Experience apparently breeds humility.

Anyway, thinking that we are able to see everything with the clarity and expansive understanding held by God seems a tad impudent.

Mark Twain commented on this acceptance of personal inadequacy:

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

― Mark Twain
 
code1211 said:
Well, then, you must be very happy.
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It's more than happiness, it's joy...happiness comes and goes, depending on circumstances...true joy is a quality of the heart and can affect the whole body for good, regardless of circumstances, because of the wonderful hope I have for the future...1 Thessalonians 4:13,14; John 5:28,29; Revelation 21:4...
 
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