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Thread: [W:220]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

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    Re: [W:220]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by <alt>doxygen View Post
    That's a pretty good distillation of the trinitarian concept.

    However, read your last sentence and then read Matt 27:46. That quote really sounds like one intellect questioning another intellect, not understanding a motivation.
    And don't forget Matthew 26:36-44.

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    Re: [W:220]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by <alt>doxygen View Post
    That's a pretty good distillation of the trinitarian concept.

    However, read your last sentence and then read Matt 27:46. That quote really sounds like one intellect questioning another intellect, not understanding a motivation.
    Here is some information on that verse in our "Questions From Readers"...

    When on the stake, Jesus cried: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Did he lack faith, believing that God had deserted him?

    Upon reading these words at Matthew 27:46 or Mark 15:34, some have concluded that when Jesus faced a painful death, his confidence in God wavered. Others have said that this was merely Jesus’ human response, an understandable cry of desperation by a flesh-and-blood man in agony. There is good reason, though, to look beyond such human evaluations based on surface appearances. While none of us today can know with certainty all that was involved in Jesus’ crying out as he did, we can note two likely motives.

    Jesus was well aware that he would have to “go to Jerusalem and suffer many things . . . , and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.” (Matthew 16:21) In heaven the Son of God had observed even imperfect humans experience torturous deaths while maintaining their integrity. (Hebrews 11:36-38) So there just is no reason to believe that Jesus​—a perfect human—​would be seized with fear over what he faced; nor would death on a stake suggest to him that his Father had rejected him. Jesus knew in advance “what sort of death he was about to die,” that is, death by impalement. (John 12:32, 33) He was sure, too, that on the third day he would be raised up. How, then, could Jesus say that God had forsaken him?

    First, he could have meant it in the qualified sense that Jehovah had taken away protection from his Son so that Jesus’ integrity would be tested to the limit, a painful and shameful death. But God’s releasing of Jesus to the wrath of enemies directed by Satan did not indicate total abandonment. Jehovah continued to show affection for Jesus, as proved on the third day when He raised his Son, which Jesus had known would occur.​—Acts 2:31-36; 10:40; 17:31.

    Connected to the foregoing is a likely second reason for Jesus’ utterance while on the stake, that by using these words he could fulfill a prophetic indication about the Messiah. Hours earlier Jesus told the apostles that things would happen “just as it is written concerning him.” (Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:21) Yes, he wanted to carry out the things that were written, including things in Psalm 22. You may find it revealing to compare Psalm 22:7, 8​—Matthew 27:39, 43; Psalm 22:15​—John 19:28, 29; Psalm 22:16​—Mark 15:25 and John 20:27; Psalm 22:18​—Matthew 27:35. Psalm 22, which gave so many prophetic indications of the Messiah’s experiences, begins: “My God, my God, why have you left me?” Hence, when Jesus cried out as he did, he was adding to the record of prophecies that he fulfilled.​—Luke 24:44.

    The psalmist did not believe that his God had simply rejected or abandoned him, for David went on to say that he would ‘declare God’s name to his brothers,’ and he urged others to praise Jehovah. (Psalm 22:22, 23) Similarly, Jesus, who knew Psalm 22 well, also had reason for confidence that his Father still approved of him and loved him, despite what God allowed him to experience on the stake.
    Questions From Readers — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
    No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him." John 1:18

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    Re: [W:220]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    That makes zero sense. Anyone who addresses someone as father is separate, so that makes two of them. If youre saying that Jesus had a human body but was the same as god goes against the concepts of trinitarianism, and is in fact arianism.
    Again, you are using your own atheistic view to define something that is not atheistic. If you don't believe in the soul, then it is hard for you to grasp. We only know Jesus as the ascended, his SOUL is part of the Divine god. His manifestation of the Son was a vessel, we are all vessels for our divine spirit. Jesus spirit was of God, not apart from it. The three aspects of the divinity act in unison, not apart. They are of the same divine spirit.

    Only trinitarian christians believe that Jesus and god are one and the same. Every other religion in the world doesnt- and with good reason. It's not logical. Even a five year old knows the difference. Two beings are not one, they are two.
    And? Are you honestly attempting and argumentum ad populum fallacy here?

    "With good reason" still remains to be seen. Again, The Word was of God, is part of the divine spirit.. and the word became flesh. Pouring the Word into a human vessel doesn't separate it from the divinity, and the vessel was only on earth for a little more than three decades, and has existed within the divinity for eternity. I would argue with the non-trinitarians that holding theological communion with atheists is .. problematic, to say the least.

    You are attempting the rationalize your way through a theological discussion on a subject actively disbelieve in and using only secular arguments. What is the point in that?

    Polytheistic religions had similar gods with similar desires, yet they were separate. The pagans knew how to count, the Christians cannot.

    Wrong, your ignorance and table pounding is a poor substitution for an argument. Polytheistic religions have wholly separate deities that feud, war, conspire and procreate with one another. They are separate entities. The same is not true of the Holy Trinity that are all aspects of the same God.

    Greek Polytheism is chock full of Deities that take on multiple forms, you wouldn't argue that the many forms of Zeus are all separate Zeus'....

    Christianity cares about the soul, not the vessel. If you insist are arguing from the aspect of the vessel alone you are not actually arguing for or against against Christian theology, you are simply ignoring it.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: [W:220]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by veritas1 View Post
    I never suggested that God could not save whomever He pleases. What I am talking about are those who claim to believe in Christ while rejecting much of what the Gospels say about Him. I would also submit that there are very few in this day who have never heard of Jesus or the claims made about Him. They must decide on the veracity of those claims and either accept or reject them in total.
    Right, the point being that salvation is not about belief in Jesus as a historical figure, but rather belief in Jesus as The Word that is written on every heart. People are attracted to the religions of Christianity because their teachings, and the Bible, resonate with the Word that they already know intrinsically.

    Whether or not they follow that word has less to do with their fidelity to a given religion and more to do with their fidelity to their own, built in moral compass. Religion is more like group therapy to keep people on the right path. Many still stray far from that path, though.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: [W:220]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by <alt>doxygen View Post
    That's a pretty good distillation of the trinitarian concept.

    However, read your last sentence and then read Matt 27:46. That quote really sounds like one intellect questioning another intellect, not understanding a motivation.
    It's a reference to Psalm 22, on the nature of the human vessel and the perils of this world. It is a demonstration that even at the our lowest point, when doubt enters our mind, that God is great.

    Consider it a preamble to an argument Jesus was making for which his Resurrection and ascension was the closing argument.

    Psalm 22

    1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
    Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from my cries of anguish?
    2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
    by night, but I find no rest.[b]

    3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
    you are the one Israel praises.[c]
    4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
    they trusted and you delivered them.
    5 To you they cried out and were saved;
    in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

    6 But I am a worm and not a man,
    scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
    7 All who see me mock me;
    they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
    8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
    Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”

    9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
    you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
    10 From birth I was cast on you;
    from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

    11 Do not be far from me,
    for trouble is near
    and there is no one to help.

    12 Many bulls surround me;
    strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
    13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
    open their mouths wide against me.
    14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
    My heart has turned to wax;
    it has melted within me.
    15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
    and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
    you lay me in the dust of death.

    16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
    17 All my bones are on display;
    people stare and gloat over me.
    18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

    19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
    You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
    20 Deliver me from the sword,
    my precious life from the power of the dogs.
    21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
    save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

    22 I will declare your name to my people;
    in the assembly I will praise you.
    23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
    All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
    Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
    24 For he has not despised or scorned
    the suffering of the afflicted one;
    he has not hidden his face from him
    but has listened to his cry for help.

    25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
    before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
    26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
    those who seek the Lord will praise him—
    may your hearts live forever!

    27 All the ends of the earth
    will remember and turn to the Lord,
    and all the families of the nations
    will bow down before him,
    28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
    and he rules over the nations.

    29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
    all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
    those who cannot keep themselves alive.
    30 Posterity will serve him;
    future generations will be told about the Lord.
    31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
    declaring to a people yet unborn:
    He has done it!
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: [W:220]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by <alt>doxygen View Post
    That's a pretty good distillation of the trinitarian concept.

    However, read your last sentence and then read Matt 27:46. That quote really sounds like one intellect questioning another intellect, not understanding a motivation.
    So lets look at the scripture in passage. IE citing specific bible verse is usually a bad idea because it can distort the context of what is being talked about. the best way to read scripture is in context with all verses together.

    45 Now from the sixth hour[f] there was darkness over all the land[g] until the ninth hour.[h] 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 47 And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.” 48 And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. 49 But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him.” 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

    Now one thing you have to understand is Christ has a duelist nature. He is both Son of God and Son of Man. So he inherently does have human qualities about him.
    On the cross was when Christ too the full weight of sin upon himself. He took every murder, rape, death, destructive act you can think of. The most horrendous crime to the smallest thing you could possibly imagine that would be sin and took it on himself.
    Jesus' Two Natures: God and Man | CARM.org

    Up until this point Christ walked in the Fathers presence. He was constantly in communion and communication with God at all times. He was never out of his Father's presence.
    When Christ took the sin of the world on his shoulders God the Father could no longer look on his Son. Sin cannot exist in God's presence. Sin is not allowed in God's presence.
    For the first time in Christ's entire actuality (is a better world) He was no longer connected to the Father.

    God the Father could no longer look at Christ. Matthew is clear that you can see the Son of Man calling out. You can also see that Christ does not die naturally but gives up his own
    spirit.

    51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son[i] of God!”

    PS i prefer the ESV translation as it is about as close to the greek context that you can get. it is one of the better translations out there.
    do not read anything from the watchtower. they have purposely changed and distorted scriptures to fit their own ideology.

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    Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    No. Euphoria is not like the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives believers a powerful hunger for the Bible that goes on and on. Euphoria is short lived. The Holy Spirit is forever and even gives knowledge and wisdom.
    The euphoria perpetuated the desire, which in turned fired even more endorphins. Fortunately I don't have to worry about any of that anymore.


    OM

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    Re: [W:220]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvira View Post
    Um, no they do not...
    Which versions are materially different? What do they mean in the context of the time in which they were written?

    Here is a direct walk through of the translation from Greek to English (PDF)...

    john11.jpg

    Where does the "a" come from in the latter translations that you accept from the 1800s, and where did it go after that?
    Last edited by jmotivator; 02-11-19 at 12:46 PM.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Man View Post
    The euphoria perpetuated the desire, which in turned fired even more endorphins. Fortunately I don't have to worry about any of that anymore.
    OM
    No, you don't have to worry about that anymore. Nor about having a positive eternity without Christ and the Holy Spirit.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: [W:220]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Which versions are materially different? What do they mean in the context of the time in which they were written?
    You can look back and see for yourself...wiki has 70 Bible translations that read that the word was something other than God...a god, God like, divine...that list shows there are many others who read Greek that see there is a definite difference & acknowledge it in their translations...

    No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him." John 1:18

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